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Thread: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    I'm all for the right to bear arms...I'm not exactly ringing the bell on the bandwagon for this law...I don't oppose it, necessarily, but I wouldn't have e-mailed my rep complaining if he had voted "no", either.
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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    How do you get statisitics? You do realize we must first have this ocme to past before we can get statisitics, right? You're as bright as anyone I've read on these forms, but you must understand this. So as we have nothing that is exactly like this, we can only look at what we do have stats on.
    There are universities which allow guns on campus. Go look up the number of school shootings at those universities compared to the universities which do not allow guns. That is how you build statistics. There is data out there; it just doesn't say what you'd like it to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Now, we do have and they have been presented stats showing that young people have a greater tendency to make mistakes. Ar eoften mor ecareless. Make poor decisions. We also have law enforement making their cases for why it is a bad idea. We can agree or disagree, but they are making a case. Statistic do show that people as as likely to shoot themselves as anyone else with a gun. And while more people die of car accidents (a meaningless statistics), more people drive and there is greater need for transportation.
    People do make mistakes, some act carelessly. But that is going to happen, it's a side effect of freedom. Car accidents are not a meaningless statistic. In fact, it's a benchmark. If you can't approach that probability; then I'm not going to be too concerned about it. As it stands, Universities which do allow guns have had NO MORE incidents of gun violence than the outlying neighborhood and other universities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    As for adult, 21 year olds are considered adults. I believe information was presented that showed the brain didn't fully develp until the late 20's. So, one can be an "adult" and still be immature and with a brain not fully developed.
    18 is adult, and while the brain doesn't reach peak operation then; it by no means indicates that we should restrict the rights of those people further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And your campus is not a large enough sample. Frankly, Colorado as a state will be nothing like Florida, or New York or California. Larger cities and population areas are actually quite different than rural areas.
    It may not be, but in all your appeal to authority, I've actually given a number. A far cry greater than what you've presented which is nothing more than supposition and appeal to authority.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by DashingAmerican View Post
    It's always a non-factor until it is a factor, eh?
    It's not a likely scenario. It could happen, and I ain't gonna stop someone from defending themselves. I just don't buy into the whole "we'll all be saved from mass shootings if students had guns" argument.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I believe they talk about a study. Right? Believe it or not, but studies are important to the professionals in question. That's why they look at them.
    Did you fail to notice the flawed methodology of the study. A person is shown a single photograph for a few seconds, no audio, no interaction, just a single frozen image and they have to make a judgement call. Nothing EVER goes down like this in the real world. There is always motion and there is always action, and THAT is how you judge intent. The participants did not even seem to be actual gun owners, who might take time to familiarize themselves with the deadly force laws in their state, but rather were apparently college age people without any mentioned firearms background. Flawed.

    It's beside the point that the whole premise of the study seemed to be the police saying, "Hey, yeah, we sometimes shoot innocent people, but our job is HARD, man! Look, you can't even do it right either, so cut us a break."
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Did you fail to notice the flawed methodology of the study. A person is shown a single photograph for a few seconds, no audio, no interaction, just a single frozen image and they have to make a judgement call. Nothing EVER goes down like this in the real world. There is always motion and there is always action, and THAT is how you judge intent. The participants did not even seem to be actual gun owners, who might take time to familiarize themselves with the deadly force laws in their state, but rather were apparently college age people without any mentioned firearms background. Flawed.

    It's beside the point that the whole premise of the study seemed to be the police saying, "Hey, yeah, we sometimes shoot innocent people, but our job is HARD, man! Look, you can't even do it right either, so cut us a break."
    Seems to me it would be pretty simple:

    1. When they're in your home with ill intent (robbery, rape, etc) and have a weapon of their own.
    2. When they're physically threatening or attacking you without provocation (mugging, rape) outside of the home, weapon or not.
    3. In the act of defending your family or property.

    Note: all for the state of Texas...
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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There are universities which allow guns on campus. Go look up the number of school shootings at those universities compared to the universities which do not allow guns. That is how you build statistics. There is data out there; it just doesn't say what you'd like it to say.
    BY all means, link such data. I would love to examime it.


    People do make mistakes, some act carelessly. But that is going to happen, it's a side effect of freedom. Car accidents are not a meaningless statistic. In fact, it's a benchmark. If you can't approach that probability; then I'm not going to be too concerned about it. As it stands, Universities which do allow guns have had NO MORE incidents of gun violence than the outlying neighborhood and other universities.
    it is meaningless in this dicussion. More people drive, so this means there will be more accidents. Also, there is a greater need. We accept risks with need. As once there was a real need for weapons. We lived with the risk. In the classroom, there is no such need.

    18 is adult, and while the brain doesn't reach peak operation then; it by no means indicates that we should restrict the rights of those people further.
    I would hope we'd go with 21, but 18 is worse. The point is, the less developed, the more likley to make reasoing errors, such to less than sound thinking. We see this is young people regularly.

    It may not be, but in all your appeal to authority, I've actually given a number. A far cry greater than what you've presented which is nothing more than supposition and appeal to authority.
    I look at Colorado once during our discussions. It's too limited, too removed. As I said, and I think you understand, it is too small a smaple. But what appeal to authority have I used? I have tried using reasoing.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Did you fail to notice the flawed methodology of the study. A person is shown a single photograph for a few seconds, no audio, no interaction, just a single frozen image and they have to make a judgement call. Nothing EVER goes down like this in the real world. There is always motion and there is always action, and THAT is how you judge intent. The participants did not even seem to be actual gun owners, who might take time to familiarize themselves with the deadly force laws in their state, but rather were apparently college age people without any mentioned firearms background. Flawed.

    It's beside the point that the whole premise of the study seemed to be the police saying, "Hey, yeah, we sometimes shoot innocent people, but our job is HARD, man! Look, you can't even do it right either, so cut us a break."
    What's the flaw? Aren't this decisions made rather quickly?

    And no, the point was to show that training helps. No one sugests mistakes can be removed completely. But you improve the odds by having better training.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What's the flaw? Aren't this decisions made rather quickly?

    And no, the point was to show that training helps. No one sugests mistakes can be removed completely. But you improve the odds by having better training.

    Seriously? You asked what the flaw was after I just explained it?
    A person is shown a single photograph for a few seconds, no audio, no interaction, just a single frozen image and they have to make a judgement call. Nothing EVER goes down like this in the real world. There is always motion and there is always action, and THAT is how you judge intent. The participants did not even seem to be actual gun owners, who might take time to familiarize themselves with the deadly force laws in their state, but rather were apparently college age people without any mentioned firearms background. Flawed.
    Would you like it broken down into bullet points (pun intended) for easier reading? The goal of the study was to make Law Enforcement not look so bad for their accidental shootings.
    "this research should make civilians more sympathetic to officers who mistakenly shoot unarmed subjects under high-stress, real-world conditions.
    Yes, things happen fast, very fast, but that's the crux of the problem, things ARE happening. A static situation severely limits your situational awareness. It's a lousy study.
    Last edited by theangryamerican; 05-10-11 at 04:51 PM.
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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Seriously? You asked what the flaw was after I just explained it?


    Would you like it broken down into bullet points (pun intended) for easier reading? The goal of the study was to make Law Enforcement not look so bad for their accidental shootings. Yes, things happen fast, very fast, but that's the crux of the problem, things ARE happening. A static situation severely limits your situational awareness.
    I'm not convinced that is a flaw. These things happen quickly and under stress. This seems quite appropriate to me.

    And your interpretation is subjective and not one I agree with. I gave you an alternative reading. And no, the crux of the problem is making that decission fast. This is also in keeping with how it is usually studied.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm not convinced that is a flaw. These things happen quickly and under stress. This seems quite appropriate to me.

    And your interpretation is subjective and not one I agree with. I gave you an alternative reading. And no, the crux of the problem is making that decission fast. This is also in keeping with how it is usually studied.
    For a test like this to work it would need to represent a real life situation. In real life, you aren't given a 2D flash of an individual. In real life, the situation plays out. Either you're home and somebody is trying to break in, or you're in a parking lot being followed, or you're carjacked or mugged. If you're conceal-carrying, which is how most would carry in the general public, you take countless hours of classes which specifically state that you should be on guard, but not standing there, safety off, finger on the trigger 24 hours a day.

    Flashing photographs in front of me and telling me to decide whether to shoot or not would probably result in a lot of no-shots. I can't make a decision in 2 seconds and in real life you usually won't have to. Put the shooter in a VR environment with a real-life scenario and test them on reactions. This test was just silly.
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