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Thread: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Your attempts to talk down to other posters don't make your arguments more convincing. Notice that I used the word "alleged" for BOTH your numbers and Goshin's. Those were my words, not his, so please don't cherry pick. If Goshin's low ball estimate was "dubious" than your numbers are just as suspect. Now, since you seem to have trouble with numbers, let's try a picture instead:



    You told Ikari that Colorado was not enough evidence for you to make an accurate judgement about the issue (again, kind of smells of cop out, don't you think?) Wouldn't it be reasonable to say that with over half of the states in the country allowing guns on campuses in some form or another, your wild fears should have played out already?

    Face it, Boo. Guns on campus is not anything new or outrageous. It's not something that they only try in "backwater states" like Texas and Colorado. In fact, it would appear to be a non-issue if you're not a criminal. If someone wants to be able to carry, there is no proven reason to forbid them to do so.
    I actually think I'm meeting your tone equally. but the point is that you need to understand what is being said. The fact is we shoot ourselves more than we shoot criminals. Alleged non shootings don't change these numbers. Of those actually shot, we shoot ourselves more often. That's verifiable fact.

    Now, there are many problems with calling up people and asking them if they successfully defended themselves with a weapon. we have no way of knowing how honest they are, but we do know, and this was also posted, that the large number the survey reports is inconsistent with the numbers of crimes committed. So, there is real reason to don't those numbers.

    And no, my numbers are based on actual shootings and not a poll of what someone thinks. So, no they are not equally dubious.

    As for half the country, new information btw, please show me numbers of any study done on those. I've been unable to find any, but would welcome viewing any you or Ikari can show.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I actually think I'm meeting your tone equally. but the point is that you need to understand what is being said. The fact is we shoot ourselves more than we shoot criminals. Alleged non shootings don't change these numbers. Of those actually shot, we shoot ourselves more often. That's verifiable fact.


    ACCIDENTAL DEATHS
    Myth: Accidental gun fatalities are a serious problem
    Fact: Firearm misuse causes only a small number of accidental deaths in the U.S. 202For example, compared to accidental death from firearms, you are:
    • Four times more likely to burn to death or drown,
    • 17 times more likely to be poisoned,
    • 19 times more likely to fall, and
    • 53 times more likely to die in an automobile accident.
    Fact: In 2001, there were only 65 accidental gun deaths for children under age 13. About 11 times as many children die from drowning.203
    Fact: In 1993, there were 1,334 drownings and 528 firearm-related accidental deaths from ages 0-19. Firearms outnumber pools by a factor of over 30:1. Thus, the risk of drowning in a pool is nearly 100 times higher than from a firearm-related accident for everyone, and nearly 500 times for ages 0-5.204
    Fact: Medical mistakes kill 400,000 people per year – the equivalent of almost three fully loaded Boeing 747 jet crashes per day – or about 286 times the rate of all accidental firearm deaths.205 This translates into 1 in 6 doctors causing an accidental death, and 1 in 56,666 gun owners doing the same.
    Fact: Only 3% of gun deaths are from accidents, and some insurance investigations indicate that many of these may not be accidents after all.206
    Fact: Around 2,000 patients each year – six per day – are accidentally killed or injured in hospitals by registered nurses.207

    Myth: Handguns are unsafe and cause accidents
    Fact: Most fatal firearm accidents involve long guns, which are more deadly. These are typically hunting accidents.208
    Fact: Handguns have triggers that are difficult for small (child) hands to operate, and are rarely the cause of accidents.209

    Myth: Innocent bystanders are often killed by guns
    Fact: Less than 1% of all gun homicides involve innocent bystanders.210

    Myth: Citizens are too incompetent to use guns for protection
    Fact: About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000. 211And that is with citizens using guns to prevent crimes almost 2,500,000 times every year.
    Fact: Most firearm accidents are caused by people with various forms of poor self-control. These include alcoholics, people with previous criminal records, people with multiple driving accidents, and those who demonstrate other risky behaviors.212

    Myth: Gun accidents are flooding emergency rooms
    Fact: The rate of gun accidents is so low the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission doesn't even mention them in their annual safety reports.
    Try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Now, there are many problems with calling up people and asking them if they successfully defended themselves with a weapon. we have no way of knowing how honest they are, but we do know, and this was also posted, that the large number the survey reports is inconsistent with the numbers of crimes committed. So, there is real reason to don't those numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    As for half the country, new information btw, please show me numbers of any study done on those. I've been unable to find any, but would welcome viewing any you or Ikari can show.
    The map I posted is compiled using information on each state’s actual gun laws, not a random study. Check ‘em out if you’re confused.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Try again.
    That's actually another question and a diversion on your part. it doesn't dispute the numbers, but tries to minimalize the meaning of them. So, I think you should try again.



    The map I posted is compiled using information on each state’s actual gun laws. Check ‘em out if you’re confused.
    Not confused at all. I asked for more. I asked for a study, perhaps a comparison, or any actual school numbers at all.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's actually another question and a diversion on your part. it doesn't dispute the numbers, but tries to minimalize the meaning of them. So, I think you should try again.
    I'm waiting for you to demonstrate that campuses which allow guns are more dangerous, have more shootings, etc. than those which do not. Because that's the dynamic at hand, and this has been your entire diversionary argument on the subject. I find it ironic you're calling out other peoples diversionary tactics and claiming they have to meet numbers when you engage similarly. As it stands, the Universities which allow guns do not suffer and more or less crime because they allow guns on campus. As I have stated since the beginning of the thread, it's really a non-factor as students on the whole won't carry guns on them.

    But if you ever choose to abandon the diversions and guesses for your point and address instead reality, let me know.
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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's actually another question and a diversion on your part. it doesn't dispute the numbers, but tries to minimalize the meaning of them. So, I think you should try again.
    My, my, what a convenient way of ignoring anything that doesn't support your opinion. It's relevant because you claim that gun accidents are a terrible problem and guns are inherently more dangerous to their owners than anyone else. This appears to be your basis for claiming that guns should not be allowed on a college campus. I believe what I posted pretty effectively refutes your premise, however, since it does that, I can see why you'd try to shrug it off and just claim it was a "diversion."





    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not confused at all. I asked for more. I asked for a study, perhaps a comparison, or any actual school numbers at all.
    It's a flawed debate argument to ask someone to prove a negative; to state that I should have to prove how many incidents have NOT happened. The burden of proof is on you, since you are making the claim that campuses are more dangerous when students can carry. I've shown you that campuses in 26 states allow some form of carry on their grounds. That should give you a fairly large data pool with which to prove how much more dangerous the campuses have become. Perhaps you could even post pictures of various campus common areas bathed in blood to support your argument, since that's what apparently would be destined to happen if students could carry, according to the anti-gun crowd.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    My, my, what a convenient way of ignoring anything that doesn't support your opinion. It's relevant because you claim that gun accidents are a terrible problem and guns are inherently more dangerous to their owners than anyone else. This appears to be your basis for claiming that guns should not be allowed on a college campus. I believe what I posted pretty effectively refutes your premise, however, since it does that, I can see why you'd try to shrug it off and just claim it was a "diversion."
    No, not ignoring. I have not at all claimed gun accidents are more than car accidents. I have not argued anything about them other than we shoot ourselves more than we shoot criminals. So, don't add anything to my claim that is not there. To dispute my claim, you have to show my numbers inaccurate. You nor anyone else has done that.



    It's a flawed debate argument to ask someone to prove a negative; to state that I should have to prove how many incidents have NOT happened. The burden of proof is on you, since you are making the claim that campuses are more dangerous when students can carry. I've shown you that campuses in 26 states allow some form of carry on their grounds. That should give you a fairly large data pool with which to prove how much more dangerous the campuses have become. Perhaps you could even post pictures of various campus common areas bathed in blood to support your argument, since that's what apparently would be destined to happen if students could carry, according to the anti-gun crowd.
    It is flawed to ask for a negative, but not what I've done. I've asked for any studeis done at all. No matter what they say.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm waiting for you to demonstrate that campuses which allow guns are more dangerous, have more shootings, etc. than those which do not. Because that's the dynamic at hand, and this has been your entire diversionary argument on the subject. I find it ironic you're calling out other peoples diversionary tactics and claiming they have to meet numbers when you engage similarly. As it stands, the Universities which allow guns do not suffer and more or less crime because they allow guns on campus. As I have stated since the beginning of the thread, it's really a non-factor as students on the whole won't carry guns on them.

    But if you ever choose to abandon the diversions and guesses for your point and address instead reality, let me know.
    I have presented evidence to back my concerns. As no studies have been done on campus YET, I can't produce what hasn't been done. Where we differ is that I beleive we can draw some conclusions based on other information. You don't think so. In the future we will likely see which one of us was right.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, not ignoring. I have not at all claimed gun accidents are more than car accidents. I have not argued anything about them other than we shoot ourselves more than we shoot criminals. So, don't add anything to my claim that is not there. To dispute my claim, you have to show my numbers inaccurate. You nor anyone else has done that.


    Your math is 16,000 > 80,000. I don't think I really have to dispute that. To play Devil's Advocate, even IF I were more likely to shoot myself than a criminal, how does that affect your campus?


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It is flawed to ask for a negative, but not what I've done. I've asked for any studeis done at all. No matter what they say.
    It's not my job to prove your argument, the burden is still on you. Let me explain this as simply as possible. You claim that campuses with guns will become more dangerous. You've been asked to prove that assertion and have, to this point, done nothing of the sort. It's not up to your opposition to prove wrong a hypothesis that you can't even support to begin with. Do your own research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I have presented evidence to back my concerns. As no studies have been done on campus YET, I can't produce what hasn't been done. Where we differ is that I beleive we can draw some conclusions based on other information. You don't think so. In the future we will likely see which one of us was right.
    ...and I presented evidence to the contrary. If this was a glaring problem on our campuses, don't you think one of the rabid anti-gun groups would be brimming full of BS studies to attempt to show how dangerous these gun-friendly colleges were now? Their silence should tell you something.

    I too believe we can draw conclusions based on other information, for example, the 26 states that allow campus carry without noticeable issue... You don't seem to want to address that though.
    Last edited by theangryamerican; 05-19-11 at 04:26 PM.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I have presented evidence to back my concerns. As no studies have been done on campus YET, I can't produce what hasn't been done. Where we differ is that I beleive we can draw some conclusions based on other information. You don't think so. In the future we will likely see which one of us was right.
    Except that I live on a campus which allows guns, and there is no ill effect. There is no reported cases of ill effect from any of the other 10's of Universities which allow guns on campus. There is data, it's just not what you want. So you continue to engage in deflection to avoid dealing with the fact that thus far in reality all Universities which allow guns have seen no net increase nor decrease in crime rates and are not significantly different in "safety" from any other University which does not allow guns. You've used generalized statistics about gun ownership, yet if what you say is true we should have seen several cases of this already in University, yet there are no reports of such having occurred. Why do you think that is so? The most probable explanation is that guns on campus have little effect on overall safety rates.
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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Your math is 16,000 > 80,000. I don't think I really have to dispute that. To play Devil's Advocate, even IF I were more likely to shoot myself than a criminal, how does that affect your campus?
    Agian, the 80,000 number does nto refer to people actually shot. And it is dubious in nature as no one can show it is a true number.

    And if they are more likley to shoot themselves, and they are, having one is a greater risk than not having one. And if they make poor decisions overall, this is one more area inw which they will likley make a poor decision. If you look up accidental shooting involiving college students, you can find examples of them shooting themselves (often at their faternity houses).



    It's not my job to prove your argument, the burden is still on you. Let me explain this as simply as possible. You claim that campuses with guns will become more dangerous. You've been asked to prove that assertion and have, to this point, done nothing of the sort. It's not up to your opposition to prove wrong a hypothesis that you can't even support to begin with. Do your own research.
    I never said it was. I merely point out your map wasn't really evidence, and offered you the chnace to shwo anything you had.

    ...and I presented evidence to the contrary. If this was a glaring problem on our campuses, don't you think one of the rabid anti-gun groups would be brimming full of BS studies to attempt to show how dangerous these gun-friendly colleges were now? Their silence should tell you something.

    I too believe we can draw conclusions based on other information, for example, the 26 states that allow campus carry without noticeable issue... You don't seem to want to address that though.
    No haven't. Nor have I used the words a glaring problem. I said it will happen. And I said that happening once, in a large area, will bring the laws back. It's not a question of numbers, it's a question of unnecssary risk. Parents and schools are very sensitive to these issues. It will only take one well publicized event.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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