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Thread: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    not that crap again which counts as a gun in the house one that a home invader brings into the house


    VPC-the most anti gun lie filled hack site going
    I'm sorry you don't like that the stats don't back you. I understand, which is why pro gun folks have to resort to trickery to boost their numbers. But, the fact is you are more likely to shoot yourself or someone close to you than a criminal statisitcally.


    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That's because even though all these "reckless kids" can carry guns, we've actually had ZERO problems from it. And there's your data.
    I don't kow that we can make that leap. While it is possibe a school in Colorado might do well for a time, the risk grows as the numbers grow.



    There aren't many Universities which allow guns on campus, there's maybe 25-30 I think thus far (with Texas you'll get another 10 or so probably). But of these schools, none have had any problems from students carrying weapons on campus. Oh snap, there goes your "they're dumb kids" argument.
    Yet, if true.

    They're not equal, I'm just saying that we've had laws that were accepted which weren't right. Slavery of course infringes well more on an individual's liberty; but you're still advocating the use of government force against the individual and thus you still must prove your side.
    I'm advocating reasonable restrictions, which have been allowed. Reasonable restrictions are very different from unreasonable ones.

    It's the most basic of tools necessary to get the job done.
    It's the get the job done part that I'm speaking to. We will never get the job done today with the weapons we can possibily have.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And yet, somehow, someway, many live their entire lives without ever having to use a gun. I've had a few accidents in my life, but never had a situation where I needed a gun. Some for whatever reason see the need where there largely isn't one.

    But let's be clear, I'm only arguing for restriction in some places. No need for a gun on campus, or in the classroom.
    Somehow, certain people also go their entire lives without needing fire or flood insurance. Does that make those that do decide to carry insurance against the possibility of fire or flood wrong? Of course not, it's simply a matter of preparing as best as possible for all circumstances. No one buys fire or flood insurance and hopes that their home is destroyed.

    Similarly, those who choose to carry a gun are certainly not guaranteed to need it, in fact, while there are some wackos out there looking for trouble the majority of citizens who carry hope they never have to defend themselves, but they are prepared in the event that they have to. Again, it's simply a matter of preparing as best as possible for all circumstances.

    I think it's absolutely commendable that you've never been in a situation where you need a gun, just as I am happy to hear that people have never had to experience a house fire or flooding. However, other people's homes are burned down and flooded on a daily basis, just as other people are victims of violent crimes on a daily basis.

    Bottom line, you're not wrong if you choose to forego insurance and I'm not right if I choose to buy as much coverage as possible. We each decide what is most important to us and how best to protect it, and that's not a decision that anyone else, including government should be able to make for us.
    Last edited by theangryamerican; 05-12-11 at 12:39 PM.
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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Somehow, certain people also go their entire lives without needing fire or flood insurance. Does that make those that do decide to carry insurance against the possibility of fire or flood wrong? Of course not, it's simply a matter of preparing as best as possible for all circumstances. No one buys fire or flood insurance and hopes that their home is destroyed.

    Similarly, those who choose to carry a gun are certainly not guaranteed to need it, in fact, while there are some wackos out there looking for trouble the majority of citizens who carry hope they never have to defend themselves, but they are prepared in the event that they have to. Again, it's simply a matter of preparing as best as possible for all circumstances.

    I think it's absolutely commendable that you've never been in a situation where you need a gun, just as I am happy to hear that people have never had to experience a house fire or flooding. However, other peoples homes are burned down and flooded on a daily basis, just as other people are victims of violent crimes on a daily basis.

    Bottom line, you're not wrong if you choose to forego insurance and I'm not right if I choose to buy as much coverage as possible. We each decide what is most important to us and how best to protect it, and that's not a decision that anyone else, including government should be able to make for us.
    At some level I agree with you. And if you have one in your home or risk areas, I won't complain. But when you provide a greater risk than you're likely to face, I pause. This is how I see guns in the classroom. The risk is much less than nearly anywhere in life, and guns merely add a risk that wasn't there to begin with.

    And for me, the user of the tool matters. And while I meet many bright, intelligent and reasonable young people every day, I also met some that scare me with them trying to opperate a bicycle, and would not feel comfortable with them armed. BTW, I know professors I feel the same way about.

    The fact is there really isn't a need that would justify any having a gun on campus.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    At some level I agree with you. And if you have one in your home or risk areas, I won't complain. But when you provide a greater risk than you're likely to face, I pause. This is how I see guns in the classroom. The risk is much less than nearly anywhere in life, and guns merely add a risk that wasn't there to begin with.

    And for me, the user of the tool matters. And while I meet many bright, intelligent and reasonable young people every day, I also met some that scare me with them trying to opperate a bicycle, and would not feel comfortable with them armed. BTW, I know professors I feel the same way about.

    The fact is there really isn't a need that would justify any having a gun on campus.
    If somone is a responsible gun owner, there's no reason for them not to have a gun on a campus. A modern gun, handled properly, is inherently very safe and anyone who would tell you otherwise is pushing an agenda.There are already laws in place that punish those who misuse their firearms, either intentionally or negligently. There's no logical reason to restrict the rights of everyone based on the few who might pose a problem (and would then be dealt with accordingly.)
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    If somone is a responsible gun owner, there's no reason for them not to have a gun on a campus. A modern gun, handled properly, is inherently very safe and anyone who would tell you otherwise is pushing an agenda.There are already laws in place that punish those who misuse their firearms, either intentionally or negligently. There's no logical reason to restrict the rights of everyone based on the few who might pose a problem (and would then be dealt with accordingly.)
    it is not the gun that is the problem. It's almost always the user. And yes, the few are reason enough. It only takes one. Having a gun on campus creates a problem with no risk to justify accepting that problem.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    it is not the gun that is the problem. It's almost always the user. And yes, the few are reason enough. It only takes one. Having a gun on campus creates a problem with no risk to justify accepting that problem.
    ...but you can't use the one exception to the rule to create a new rule can you? If it only takes one gun accident to justify keeping all guns off campus, by the same reasoning wouldn't it only take one violent crime on campus to allow all students the ability to defend themselves against violent crime? After all, all it takes is one to prove that the danger is there, right? I think we both know it's easy to find stories about violent crime on college campuses...

    Again, there are laws that already address the misuse of firearms. Even the most ignorant person in the world could safely carry a gun on their belt as long they don't touch it, but the second they misuse it in any way, the law will come into play. TX is not an open carry state, so that means that anyone carrying on campus would have their gun tucked away, out of the public eye. Also in TX, you still have to go through a permit process before you can carry. To even allow a concealed weapon to show in a non-life threatening situation is against the law and subject to stiff punishments. The few people that make the choice to carry aren't going to be waving their guns around, passing them to friends, showing them off. It just doesn't work that way.
    Last edited by theangryamerican; 05-12-11 at 01:09 PM.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    ...but you can't use the one exception to the rule to create a new rule can you? If it only takes one gun accident to justify keeping all guns off campus, by the same reasoning wouldn't it only take one violent crime on campus to allow all students the ability to defend themselves against violent crime? After all, all it takes is one to prove that the danger is there, right? I think we both know it's easy to find stories about violent crime on college campuses...

    Again, there are laws that already address the misuse of firearms. Even the most ignorant person in the world could safely carry a gun on their belt as long they don't touch it, but the second they misuse it in any way, the law will come into play. TX is not an open carry state, so that means that anyone carrying on campus would have their gun tucked away, out of the public eye. Also in TX, you still have to go through a permit process before you can carry. To even allow a concealed weapon to show in a non-life threatening situation is against the law and subject to stiff punishments. The few people that make the choice to carry aren't going to be waving their guns around, passing them to friends, showing them off. It just doesn't work that way.
    It's not a new rule. the new rule is allowing guns on campus. But yes, you can have a rule meant to curtail a small percentage of people. As it only takes one to cause the problem you want to prevent.

    And we have policies against violence of all kinds as well. Knifes aren't allowed either. No weapons are. Fighting will also get you arrested.

    The risk of having guns are campus outwiegh any possible reason for it, as there is really no need for a weapon on campus. We don't really have any siginifcant troubles on campus that would warrant any one needing to be armed.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It's not a new rule. the new rule is allowing guns on campus. But yes, you can have a rule meant to curtail a small percentage of people. As it only takes one to cause the problem you want to prevent.
    I was speaking figuratively about creating new rules based on a single exception, but technically, the right to carry firearms existed long before "Gun Free Zones." So I think you could still call it the "new rule" comparatively and not compromise my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And we have policies against violence of all kinds as well. Knifes aren't allowed either. No weapons are. Fighting will also get you arrested.
    I know of not one violent act that has been stopped preemptively by campus policy. I know of many violent crimes that have taken place on campus properties. It would seem that if the school cannot seriously protect its students, perhaps the students should be able to take responsibility for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The risk of having guns are campus outwiegh any possible reason for it, as there is really no need for a weapon on campus. We don't really have any siginifcant troubles on campus that would warrant any one needing to be armed.
    Again, this is not true. Guns are inherently safe and there are already laws in place to punish the actual gun owners who misuse their weapon. People cannot be told when they do or do not need a right. By definition, it's theirs to exercise at their choosing until it's legally proven that the individual should have that right restricted.

    I can honestly appreciate your position, Boo. You don't feel the need to carry a gun, and again, that's fine by me. I don't demand that all citizens must be armed. You feel that guns around you pose an inherent threat. That's also fine by me. You're able to form whatever opinions you like. However, until my right to bear arms actually infringes on your rights, we should both be able to legally go about exercising those rights respectively.

    It's often said that "My right to swing my fist ends when it meets your face." I've never heard it said "My right to swing my fists ends when you decide you don't like the way I swing."
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    I taught a place that was listed once as the third most violent campus in America, and I still never saw need for a gun. In fact, if most of those situations had seen a gun pulled, the violence would have esculated. The more people armed, the more likely someone would shoot back.

    Our largest enemy in life is often fear. We then try to delude ourself into thinking being armed makes us safe, and yet the numbers say otherwise. More often than not, we shoot ourselves. Now, we can't legislate away all risks. And living is inherently a risky proposition, but there are places where we can and should impose restrictions. I think the classroom is one of those places. By and large, it's a safe place. Even on the campus I spoke of, very little happened that would warrant being armed. And without a weapon, I handled every problematic situation that came up. There's no substitute for sound thinking and reasoing.

    Now, i won't support a lwa that says you can't have one at home. I won't say that you can't carry one anywhere. Heck, even though I like the idea of such a law, I won't even argue to forbid stupid people from owning one. Well, I may rethink that one. But I will argue that a safe palce like a school, populated by young people, that we can and should restrict guns.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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