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Thread: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    if so, present it. I have a screen up searching right now by am failing to find anything.
    Colorado, Utah, Michigan, and Virginia all have schools which allow guns on campus. This is how you do it. Michigan State University allows guns. MSU is in East Lansing. What you need is the gun crime stats for MSU and the gun crime stats of East Lansing. Both are relatively low. Take the ratio. Find any school in Michigan which doesn't allow guns, like University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, do the same. Compare the ratio. Is there significant deviation one way or the other? That's how you compile the data you need to compile to prove your point. Soon the schools in Texas will allow even more data collection for universities with guns. But if you want to use government force properly against the rights and liberties of the individual; you have to prove your case. If you cannot prove it, for whatever reason, then you have presented no reason as to why we should accept this as legitimate use of government force. That's the end all be all of the argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I believe I've made a logical case. No data true, but that isn't all there is to logic.
    You've made jumps in logic; you've pieced together things through assumption and supposition; yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I don't believe anything I've suggested is improper. We ahve ahd these restrictions, do have these restrictions, as well as others and always have had some type of restriction.
    Because something exists does not mean that it's right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Even with no guns laws at all, they simply won't have the tools.
    Let us worry about that. If it is necessary to call to arms, arms must be around to be picked up.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    [QUOTE=Ikari;1059478326]
    Colorado, Utah, Michigan, and Virginia all have schools which allow guns on campus. This is how you do it. Michigan State University allows guns. MSU is in East Lansing. What you need is the gun crime stats for MSU and the gun crime stats of East Lansing. Both are relatively low. Take the ratio. Find any school in Michigan which doesn't allow guns, like University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, do the same. Compare the ratio. Is there significant deviation one way or the other? That's how you compile the data you need to compile to prove your point. Soon the schools in Texas will allow even more data collection for universities with guns. But if you want to use government force properly against the rights and liberties of the individual; you have to prove your case. If you cannot prove it, for whatever reason, then you have presented no reason as to why we should accept this as legitimate use of government force. That's the end all be all of the argument.
    Wouldn't it be better to have stats that include all of them? Frankly, there amy bge other factors involved either way. Even I showed there was more truouble at a school with guns allowed, it is likely there are reasons beyond the guns for it (which inpart is why I think some areas have larger risk factors than others). Do you really think this method would be conclusive?


    You've made jumps in logic; you've pieced together things through assumption and supposition; yes.
    I don't think the leaps are that large. More people do shoot themselves, and young people are more likely to use poor judgment. I think this is true. adding guns to the mix would logically increase the risk.



    Because something exists does not mean that it's right.
    Doesn't mean it's wrng either. However, the fact is we have allowed it, and stood by it legally.

    Let us worry about that. If it is necessary to call to arms, arms must be around to be picked up.
    If there is need for revolution, I would prefer something that might actually work.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    when I was in college they were good guys. I remember one day, two of my suitemates (we had two bedrooms, one living room-four guys as freshman) were smoking some dope while me and the other non-doper were tossing down a few "Tuborg Golds" while playing some Led ZEp at unsafe volumes. We get a knock on the door and its the campus cops. The Sgt holds his nose and said-DO YOU BOYS HAVE ANY UNREGISTERED SPACE HEATERS OR STOVES. no sir I said. the other cop said CARRY ON BOYS and left. Campus cops were generally pretty cool and did a good job since it was considered a plumb job. The New Haven cops weren't bad, most of them were the cousins or brothers or dads of the local guys who were football players-Yale tended to get the cream of the crop of the local football talent and like the cops many were of Italian extraction.
    I remember some of ours wore mirrored sunglasses, and all the chrome their shirts and utility belts could hold. They'd strut through like they were looking for a reason to get somebody.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post


    BUT...just for the RECORD...and you can copy and paste this and store it on your computer for future reference...I don't have a standing objection concealed weapons on Texas campuses...until actions prove that isn't a viable option. And that goes for any other place that's by the statutes legally allows firearms.
    That was a whole lot of words that were neither "yes," nor "no" like I asked, but the above quote I think is enough to begin to tackle your position. It seems you're a bit confused on the issue at hand though, since you jumped on the “blood in the streets” bandwagon early in the thread, but miraculously reversed direction when pressured for your personal opinion. If you don't have a problem with guns on campus, why were you bringing up the tired ole' anti-gun crowd argument about guns at frat parties (which has not been a visible problem so far?) Didn't you say you supported everyone's right to carry everywhere until it was proven to be a bad idea? It seems your initial judgement may have been a bit premature...

    Oh...and the Brady quote was when you were defending the Brady Bunch to Turtle by saying:

    TD...your tortoise shell gets sooooo illuminous when you get all hot and bothered...

    Brady ninnes? How many people to you care about has ever been shot in the head?
    How many people of the Brady Bill crowd have had loved ones shot in the head. One that I know of. Do you care to defend either of those quotes in light of your new stance on this issue, or should we all just pretend you never posted them?
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I have been involved in a shooting where I was the victim of an attempted mugging that was stopped with a near fatal gunshot inflicted upon one of the two assailants. I have also taught CCW courses, and have over 35 years of competitive shooting experience in both handgun and shotgun tournaments and I have trained police officers, federal law enforcement officers and licensed civilians in both shooting and the use of force.
    Good plot... Who plays you? When's the movie coming out?

    ricksfolly

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    These are fairly widely known stats. But I'll give you some links:

    A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting, than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
    A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting, a criminal assault or homicide, or an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
    Journal of Trauma, 1998

    Stop Handgun Violence: The Facts

    The largest category of firearms fatality is suicide, not homicide. In 1997, 54 percent of all gun deaths were suicides, and 42 percent were homicides.16

    (snip)

    Self Defense

    For every time a gun in the home is used in a self-defense homicide, a gun will be used in�


    1.3 unintentional deaths

    4.6 criminal homicides

    37 suicides22

    VPC - Handgun Ban Fact Sheet

    In 2007, there were 613 fatal firearm accidents in the United States, constituting 0.5% of 123,706 fatal accidents that year.[120]

    (snip)

    In 2007, there were roughly 15,698 emergency room visits for non-fatal firearm accidents . . . .

    Gun Control

    The last one, though hardly a non-biased site, clearly shows over 16,000 people shot themselves in 2007.

    Untrue.

    Estimates on self-defense useage ranges from extreme lows of around 80,000 to extreme highs of 2.5 million, annually. If the truth is somewhere in the middle, guns protect people dozens if not hundreds of times more often than they are used to inflict unintentional or needless or unlawful harm.


    Liberty and fundamental rights FTW.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    That was a whole lot of words that were neither "yes," nor "no" like I asked, but the above quote I think is enough to begin to tackle your position. It seems you're a bit confused on the issue at hand though, since you jumped on the “blood in the streets” bandwagon early in the thread, but miraculously reversed direction when pressured for your personal opinion. If you don't have a problem with guns on campus, why were you bringing up the tired ole' anti-gun crowd argument about guns at frat parties (which has not been a visible problem so far?) Didn't you say you supported everyone's right to carry everywhere until it was proven to be a bad idea? It seems your initial judgement may have been a bit premature...

    Oh...and the Brady quote was when you were defending the Brady Bunch to Turtle by saying:



    How many people of the Brady Bill crowd have had loved ones shot in the head. One that I know of. Do you care to defend either of those quotes in light of your new stance on this issue, or should we all just pretend you never posted them?
    Ah....a Brady Bunch doomsayer like your bud TD. The world is out to get ya, huh? Paranoia does that to folks who are trapped inside their own fiction that can see, hear, and feel that knock on the door of the government coming to take away your guns. Oh, and lets not forget the criminals who stalk you...waiting to get ya. Yep, its a cruel world, indeed.

    As I clearly said before, this is America...you know how it all works, right? I get my say...despite your disagreements. I bring up whatever I want about anything. That includes that "TIRED OLE' anti-gun crowd argument.

    You see...I think now...that you've really gotten down to the real issue here.

    You are using your Brady Bunch doomsayers nonsense to use as a means to really slam my patriotism. Right? My comment to TD...is a valid question. People say the wildest thing until they are faced with the very issues that they so often criticized others for. And that's really nothing more than "If you don't believe as I do"...then you whatever the hell you believe has no value. In my opinion...yep, opinion, TD does this frequently. Now it wouldn't be so bad if he would offer something tangible to go along with his arguments, but he rarely does. Is that how you work it as well?

    Is this what this is about? I'm not sown to your ideologies, your beliefs, your opinions...so obviously, mine are valueless.... So you try to dump your paranoia about gun ownership disguised as a tool to question other peoples beliefs about their rights and attempt to dissect and degrade all who doesn't meet your level of paranoia. Good Boy...you done good, man.

    I was more than clear about my being a gun owner, I was more than clear about my beliefs of the rights of individuals to protect his or her person, family, property. I made it clear that I was for ANY lawful use of weapons. But that isn't what you needed....not wanted...but NEEDED. Because I said that mixing drugs, booze and guns... Whooooa...that hit a tender spot didn't it.

    But since you brought it up...our prisons are full of people who got drugged up and drunk...killed somebody and then cried..."Oh, please, I didn't know what I was doing." Think that's an impossible situation with a bunch of frat kids? Of course you do. That's just impossible, right. NO MORE impossible than that crazy people who's gone campuses and randomly killed people.

    Oh, wait...what you are lacking from me to clarify is that there just wont be as many death incidents among frats who get stoned and shoot somebody as often as a wacknut who just decides to kill a bunch of people. Yeah...well, you know how those darn collateral damage thing goes. So one has to outweigh the other for it to validate your point.

    People kill each other every day. So...your all for doing what about it? I know...NOTHING. Because you can't. Now, your stance on guns...cool, stock up a million of them. But the second you break the law using one of them...you need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

    Now...once and for all. I believe that people should have to right to bear arms along with the responsibility of obeying the laws as it pertains to ownership.

    And if I ever get into a situation where I need to use my gun...I'll will truly wished that it was you that had the pleasure of being in my place - because I don't ever want to be in that situation. Something tells me that you just can't wait.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Ah....a Brady Bunch doomsayer like your bud TD. The world is out to get ya, huh? Paranoia does that to folks who are trapped inside their own fiction that can see, hear, and feel that knock on the door of the government coming to take away your guns. Oh, and lets not forget the criminals who stalk you...waiting to get ya. Yep, its a cruel world, indeed.

    As I clearly said before, this is America...you know how it all works, right? I get my say...despite your disagreements. I bring up whatever I want about anything. That includes that "TIRED OLE' anti-gun crowd argument.

    You see...I think now...that you've really gotten down to the real issue here.

    You are using your Brady Bunch doomsayers nonsense to use as a means to really slam my patriotism. Right? My comment to TD...is a valid question. People say the wildest thing until they are faced with the very issues that they so often criticized others for. And that's really nothing more than "If you don't believe as I do"...then you whatever the hell you believe has no value. In my opinion...yep, opinion, TD does this frequently. Now it wouldn't be so bad if he would offer something tangible to go along with his arguments, but he rarely does. Is that how you work it as well?

    Is this what this is about? I'm not sown to your ideologies, your beliefs, your opinions...so obviously, mine are valueless.... So you try to dump your paranoia about gun ownership disguised as a tool to question other peoples beliefs about their rights and attempt to dissect and degrade all who doesn't meet your level of paranoia. Good Boy...you done good, man.

    I was more than clear about my being a gun owner, I was more than clear about my beliefs of the rights of individuals to protect his or her person, family, property. I made it clear that I was for ANY lawful use of weapons. But that isn't what you needed....not wanted...but NEEDED. Because I said that mixing drugs, booze and guns... Whooooa...that hit a tender spot didn't it.

    But since you brought it up...our prisons are full of people who got drugged up and drunk...killed somebody and then cried..."Oh, please, I didn't know what I was doing." Think that's an impossible situation with a bunch of frat kids? Of course you do. That's just impossible, right. NO MORE impossible than that crazy people who's gone campuses and randomly killed people.

    Oh, wait...what you are lacking from me to clarify is that there just wont be as many death incidents among frats who get stoned and shoot somebody as often as a wacknut who just decides to kill a bunch of people. Yeah...well, you know how those darn collateral damage thing goes. So one has to outweigh the other for it to validate your point.

    People kill each other every day. So...your all for doing what about it? I know...NOTHING. Because you can't. Now, your stance on guns...cool, stock up a million of them. But the second you break the law using one of them...you need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

    Now...once and for all. I believe that people should have to right to bear arms along with the responsibility of obeying the laws as it pertains to ownership.

    And if I ever get into a situation where I need to use my gun...I'll will truly wished that it was you that had the pleasure of being in my place - because I don't ever want to be in that situation. Something tells me that you just can't wait.
    *sigh* I'm sorry, sir, I'm really trying to keep up the debate, but your posts are steadily becoming more and and more wandering. I'm not even really sure what any of that was about... Maybe it's late in the day, but I feel like that was a really rambling, stream-of-consciousness type of post. Anyone care to translate?
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Untrue.

    Estimates on self-defense useage ranges from extreme lows of around 80,000 to extreme highs of 2.5 million, annually. If the truth is somewhere in the middle, guns protect people dozens if not hundreds of times more often than they are used to inflict unintentional or needless or unlawful harm.


    Liberty and fundamental rights FTW.
    What is true is debatable. At least you see the problem with statistics. But adding accidental shootings, not just those that led to deaths, with suicides, and I believe they do out number actual crminals shot (not questionable not shot statistics).

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What is true is debatable. At least you see the problem with statistics. But adding accidental shootings, not just those that led to deaths, with suicides, and I believe they do out number actual crminals shot (not questionable not shot statistics).
    You can "believe they do" all you want, but can you prove it?
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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