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Thread: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Those statistics are of general gun use and ownership. Not of realistic increased/decreased risks by allowing students to carry on campus. That's the data you need. What you really need is a school which allows guns and has a much higher (statistically significant) gun crime rate on campus than the surrounding area. Only, you won't find that for a few reasons. One is that there is a limited data set, the other is that students even when allowed to carry guns rarely do. The ones who do choose to carry are responsible with the care and use of their firearms on campus. For all the campuses across America which allow guns to be carried, none of them are having gun crime problems above the background. That's just simple fact. That's what you have to deal with.
    Yes, I know those are of general gun stats. They are stats that have a large enough sampling to be siginifcant. there is nothing with guns on campus comparable. That's kind of my point here.

    I don't believe there is a significant number allowing guns, and especially nto in areas that are most likley to have problems.

    There are limits on what the government can restrict from us. No matter if we THINK it's necessary to ban.
    I agree there are limits. I really don't support a law that forbids you to have one in your home, or even to carry in a good number of places. But, on campus? No. The risk is to great and a fine place for limititations.


    And when it happens you can do something. Our system of government force against the rights and liberties of the individual (force you wish to enact or keep present) is not proactive, it is reactive. Someone has to do something first.
    I prefer to be a little more proactive, just in case is actually me.


    That's more due to desire than ability. But we must retain the tools for revolt regardless. A people without the means of overthrowing their government are a people enslaved.
    I don't see revolution of this type in our future. And if such ever came about, we'll need more than weapons. Hands, even rifles, won't be near enough.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It's not a question of total percentage of accidents. What happens with other things is meaningless. The question was what is more likley to happen with a weapon and not how it compared to other things.

    I used the last source for you, so you would accept the source biased your direction. Earlier in this thread someone dealt with the flaws in the numbers you're using. The biased site uses those numbers because it fits their POV. However, those are from a survey that only goes off what people say, not any verified information. As one source noted, those numbers are much too high when match against known crime statisitics. There are lots of reasons to doubt those numbers.

    No, the numbers I quote are totals of actual deaths and sucides, and not some merely saying, yeah, I knew someone who committed sucide or shot themselves. Surely you can see the difference?
    The number of firearm accidents I took directly from your quote from the second link. The amount of gun owners in the country are not really contested, I think we can all agree it's between 70-80 million Americans who currently own guns. So...the amount of accidents divided by the total number of gun owners is what I gave you. Media hype and bias aside, not even close to one percent of gunowners are being injured by their own guns. It's a hyperbole argument being thrown out by the Brady Bunch.

    You can decide that you don't wish to carry a firearm. That's fine for you. It's a no-brainer for me. Looking at the numbers, I'd much rather take the small chance that I may some day make a mistake, than risk having to stand by while my family is raped and burned to death.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, I know those are of general gun stats. They are stats that have a large enough sampling to be siginifcant. there is nothing with guns on campus comparable. That's kind of my point here.

    I don't believe there is a significant number allowing guns, and especially nto in areas that are most likley to have problems.
    See here's the real problem with your argument. You take some general stat and then say it's more likely to occur in X. The only problem is YOU HAVE NO DATA THAT WOULD EVEN SAY THAT X WOULD BE WORSE. You are making a leap in logic. To say what you want to say you need DATA FROM UNIVERSITIES WITH AND WITHOUT GUNS. For christ's sake, this shouldn't be so tough for you to understand. You're trying to claim something which isn't endorsed by anything you have posted. You want to say allowing adults to exercise their rights on campus will lead to negative consequences. Well there are Universities which already allow guns on campus and ones which do not. What does the DATA say? The DATA SAYS there is no statistical difference in the gun violence up/down from background between schools with gun bans and schools without gun bans.

    That's the real data, that is the measurement which answers the question, the one you are trying your damnedest to avoid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I agree there are limits. I really don't support a law that forbids you to have one in your home, or even to carry in a good number of places. But, on campus? No. The risk is to great and a fine place for limititations.
    You think the risk is too great. But there is no data which supports your claim. In fact all data we have currently SAYS THE EXACT OPPOSITE!!!!!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I prefer to be a little more proactive, just in case is actually me.
    You can feel that way all you want. But it's not proper use of government force, it's tyranny. It's an example of why we need guns and should be carrying them in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't see revolution of this type in our future. And if such ever came about, we'll need more than weapons. Hands, even rifles, won't be near enough.
    it doesn't matter if you see it or not. Revolution is a valid and accepted tool of the People should the government no longer serve our needs. The tools of which must be afforded to the general populace.
    Last edited by Ikari; 05-11-11 at 01:50 PM.
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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    ...and why should the fact that some people choose not further their training negatively impact those who do wish to carry responsibly. Should everyone be barred from racing in NASCAR because a few haven't taken the time to practice the track? There are already laws in place to address the impoper use of firearms. There need not be extra restrictions on those who do choose to be responsible gun owners.
    I don't particularly care whether or not people can legally carry concealed firearms. It should be a personal choice, which would shift the emphasis to responsible individuals, not some politically charged emotion about self-defense on college campuses. Mentally unbalanced and criminal individuals are always able to satisfy their desire for weapons (for less money than on the legal market). Encouraging the immediate gratification oriented general public, especially of college age, who could care less about even minimal ongoing training to carry concealed weapons seems more dangerous than prudent, accidents waiting to happen.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    [QUOTE=Ikari;1059478208]
    See here's the real problem with your argument. You take some general stat and then say it's more likely to occur in X. The only problem is YOU HAVE NOT DAMNED DATA THAT WOULD EVEN SAY THAT X WOULD BE WORSE. You are making a leap in logic. To say what you want to say you need DATA FROM UNIVERSITIES WITH AND WITHOUT GUNS. For christ's sake, this shouldn't be so tough for you to understand. You're trying to claim something which isn't endorsed by anything you have posted. You want to say allowing adults to exercise their rights on campus will lead to negative consequences. Well there are Universities which already allow guns on campus and ones which do not. What does the DATA say? The DATA SAYS there is no statistical difference in the gun violence up/down from background between schools with gun bans and schools without gun bans.

    That's the real data, that is the measurement which answers the question, the one you are trying your damnedest to avoid.
    We don't have that data yet, so we have to think. We don't have enough universities with guns on campus, and we don't have such in areas most likely to be problems yet. Studies are good, and I agree support is often required. But it should never replace logical thought. As we get more data, we can show it. It will likely support one of us. But until we get it, we're prevented from thinking.


    You think the risk is too great. But there is no data which supports your claim. In fact all data we have currently SAYS THE EXACT OPPOSITE!!!!!!!
    I've seen no data that says the opposite. I've seen no specific data period. And I am continuing to look. If you have it, post it.



    You can feel that way all you want. But it's not proper use of government force, it's tyranny. It's an example of why we need guns and should be carrying them in the first place.
    Government makes laws and restrictions all the time, properly, aith our consent. This is not tyranny.



    it doesn't matter if you see it or not. Revolution is a valid and accepted tool of the People should the government no longer serve our needs. The tools of which must be afforded to the general populace.
    There is place for revolution. I merely say I see it happening here in our life time. And I pray it doesn't. none of us will like that kind of suffering.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    The number of firearm accidents I took directly from your quote from the second link. The amount of gun owners in the country are not really contested, I think we can all agree it's between 70-80 million Americans who currently own guns. So...the amount of accidents divided by the total number of gun owners is what I gave you. Media hype and bias aside, not even close to one percent of gunowners are being injured by their own guns. It's a hyperbole argument being thrown out by the Brady Bunch.

    You can decide that you don't wish to carry a firearm. That's fine for you. It's a no-brainer for me. Looking at the numbers, I'd much rather take the small chance that I may some day make a mistake, than risk having to stand by while my family is raped and burned to death.
    Again, not the point. I'm not disputing the accident numbers. Or the sucicde numbers. Nor are you. Be it 1% or 181%, more shot themselves then they shot criminals (accident and sucide).

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    You can decide that you don't wish to carry a firearm. That's fine for you. It's a no-brainer for me. Looking at the numbers, I'd much rather take the small chance that I may some day make a mistake, than risk having to stand by while my family is raped and burned to death.
    And the odds of the latter occurring would be?

    It seems as if you're implying that you're less likely to injure yourself with your own firearm than your family is to be raped and burned to death.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    We don't have that data yet, so we have to think. We don't have enough universities with guns on campus, and we don't have such in areas most likely to be problems yet. Studies are good, and I agree support is often required. But it should never replace logical thought. As we get more data, we can show it. It will likely support one of us. But until we get it, we're prevented from thinking.
    The data exists, you just don't want to acknowledge it. Colorado ain't the only place that allows guns in Universities. There are plenty of universities across America which allow guns. You don't want to look at it, you want to say "it's too small" blah blah blah. But the fact of the matter is, it exists. And you know what the real world says? The exact opposite that you are saying. So between your fantasy and reality, I'm siding with reality. You have no numbers, you have no proof, you have no logic. You want to say you're thinking, I'm doubting it. Because a rational individual would take a look at the real world and see what's happening first before making supposition and "I think"s. The real world says guns on campus is a non-factor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I've seen no data that says the opposite. I've seen no specific data period. And I am continuing to look. If you have it, post it.
    You want to use government force against the rights and liberties of the individual, adults in our society. You have to demonstrate the necessity, not just say "I think" blah blah blah. That's not proof; that's supposition. You've seen no real data because you don't want to see it. You don't want to look up the Universities with gun policies and see what their gun crime rate is compared to the surrounding area. You don't want to see if you're right. You just want to put out "I think" and "The police say" all over the place. Man up and see if you're actually right why don't you? If you want to use government force against the rights and liberties of the individual; you need proof. I told you EXACTLY how to get your proof. It doesn't exist because in the actual world you don't see all these Universities which allow guns looking like the OK Corral. They don't have any statistically significant deviation with background. But that's how you do it, that's the numbers you want to prove the point you want to make. There is real world results and measurements already. It's time for you to quit using supposition and appeal to authority and actually look up the reality of the situation to see if the force you are calling for is justified. Otherwise, mind your own business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Government makes laws and restrictions all the time, properly, aith our consent. This is not tyranny.
    Improper use of government force against the rights and liberties of the individual is indeed tyranny.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    There is place for revolution. I merely say I see it happening here in our life time. And I pray it doesn't. none of us will like that kind of suffering.
    It may not happen for awhile, revolution is serious business. Still the People must be allowed access to the tools for such. It is a necessity in keeping a free state.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    [QUOTE=Ikari;1059478290]
    The data exists, you just don't want to acknowledge it. Colorado ain't the only place that allows guns in Universities. There are plenty of universities across America which allow guns. You don't want to look at it, you want to say "it's too small" blah blah blah. But the fact of the matter is, it exists. And you know what the real world says? The exact opposite that you are saying. So between your fantasy and reality, I'm siding with reality. You have no numbers, you have no proof, you have no logic. You want to say you're thinking, I'm doubting it. Because a rational individual would take a look at the real world and see what's happening first before making supposition and "I think"s. The real world says guns on campus is a non-factor.
    if so, present it. I have a screen up searching right now by am failing to find anything.



    You want to use government force against the rights and liberties of the individual, adults in our society. You have to demonstrate the necessity, not just say "I think" blah blah blah. That's not proof; that's supposition. You've seen no real data because you don't want to see it. You don't want to look up the Universities with gun policies and see what their gun crime rate is compared to the surrounding area. You don't want to see if you're right. You just want to put out "I think" and "The police say" all over the place. Man up and see if you're actually right why don't you? If you want to use government force against the rights and liberties of the individual; you need proof. I told you EXACTLY how to get your proof. It doesn't exist because in the actual world you don't see all these Universities which allow guns looking like the OK Corral. They don't have any statistically significant deviation with background. But that's how you do it, that's the numbers you want to prove the point you want to make. There is real world results and measurements already. It's time for you to quit using supposition and appeal to authority and actually look up the reality of the situation to see if the force you are calling for is justified. Otherwise, mind your own business.
    I believe I've made a logical case. No data true, but that isn't all there is to logic.

    Improper use of government force against the rights and liberties of the individual is indeed tyranny.
    I don't believe anything I've suggested is improper. We ahve ahd these restrictions, do have these restrictions, as well as others and always have had some type of restriction.

    It may not happen for awhile, revolution is serious business. Still the People must be allowed access to the tools for such. It is a necessity in keeping a free state.
    Even with no guns laws at all, they simply won't have the tools.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Simple "yes" or "no" question:

    Do you support students carrying guns on campus?

    Please answer before going any further.

    Now, I'm not saying that you're anti-gun for stating that criminals will always have access to guns. In fact, I completely agree with you on that. I've never even come remotely close to saying that laws will prevent bad people from getting guns on this board EVER. I'm calling you out for stating that you don't support the rights of law-abiding gun owners to protect themselves from the criminals.

    Quote Originally Posted by AP
    AUSTIN, Texas - Republicans in the Texas Senate on Monday approved allowing concealed handgun license holders to carry weapons into public college buildings and classrooms, moving forward on a measure that had stalled until supporters tacked it on to a universities spending bill.
    Please copy and paste anything I directly said about supporting the BRADY CROWD...or any other group for or against the ability to carry a concealed gun holder (who is such by the laws of the state).

    ...or was I just "reading words that weren't there" when you were supporting the Brady crowd and talking about people shooting up frat parties if they carried on campus?
    Ahhhhhhhh, now I get it...Making a comment about a potential outcome of mixing drugs and booze with guns at a frat party...is the deal with you?

    Please copy and paste any direct comments stating I was in support of "the Brady Crowd"...and even if I was?

    Please copy and past any comments that I made that says: "I don't support the rights of law-abiding gun owners to protect themselves from the criminals."

    And what part of:
    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind
    I don't hunt. So, I might not own a gun if it weren't for criminals, mentally impaired who might just go off the deep end...and of course governments.
    don't you understand. I am a law abiding citizen who has a gun to protect myself, my family and property from all of the aforementioned entities. And I believe that ALL law abiding citizens should indeed have that right.

    And what part of:
    Personally I don't care where "Licensed" concealed weapons are allowed "by law".
    don't you understand. You see, the Bill just passed in Texas Senate that allows guns on Campus REQUIRES A LICENSE FOR CONCEALED WEAPONS. Ya dig?

    Since I'm not a lawmaker, and I don't have any influence over the laws made in the State of Texas or any other state...I try my best to be a law abiding citizen.

    So if your question means me saying to you that I support guns on colleges...

    My support is where my personal control lies...and that's to attempt to follow the law.

    Now, unless you are a lawmaker in Colorado, I suspect that whether or not you support or don't support specific legislation...make no matter to your legislators and the reality is...you personally have no control over that process any more than I do.

    Ultimately, your position is not more or less than mine....over whatever I choose my position to be because you don't have anymore choice than I do

    And to top it off...I don't have to share with anybody about what my positions are. I take those to the voters booth.

    This is America. I can choose to support anything I want to. Or I can choose not to support anything I want to...and it doesn't make my position any less valuable than yours.

    BUT...just for the RECORD...and you can copy and paste this and store it on your computer for future reference...I don't have a standing objection concealed weapons on Texas campuses...until actions prove that isn't a viable option. And that goes for any other place that's by the statutes legally allows firearms.

    However...if there is any future incidents that shows carrying a conceal weapon on Texas campuses was the wrong thing to do...by some obvious actions that prove it to be...you'd find some reason to dispute that...right? As long as it's not your college kids or you own kid involved...you will dispute any future legislative attempt to resend that law IF there is warranted proof it wasn't a good idea...right?

    Any other issues?
    Last edited by Removable Mind; 05-11-11 at 02:21 PM.

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