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Thread: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That still seems like too small an example, but I will look it up. And if Boulder is an exception, why do you think it is different?
    See, here's the thing. You keep saying "it still seems like too small an example"; but it's larger than any example you've given. I have real data, you have supposition. Faced with that choice, I'm going with the measurement. You can wax philosophical all you want, but in the end everything comes down to measurement. I have it, you don't.

    Boulder is different because I think they got themselves designated in a way where they can ban guns on their campus. I don't think they allow guns there. Which is good because if any sane person had a gun in that city, he'd shoot all those god damned trustafarians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not sure a gun does that. Many of us manage to defend ourselves just fine without a gun. And we ahve the added benefit of not shooting ourselves.
    The gun is a tool to do so. It can indeed be used for defense of life, liberty, and property particularly against agressive agents or even our own government should it be necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's what the guy who sells crack on the corner says. However, ignoring that little joke, as their silliness certainly could spill over into my life, I do have so reason to be concerned.
    And when it does you can maybe say something. Before that point, mind your own damned business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You're right to some degree. They don't get to decide. But this is their realm of expertise. So absent any siginificant statistical evidence, . . . yet . . . . it is good to hear what those who have some knowledge think.
    Their realm of expertise is control over a populace. It's easier to control an unarmed populace than an armed one.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    LOL, the bitterness of Colorado for its utter dependence on Texas never ceases to amaze. Just keep your slopes open, and we'll keep subsidizing your economy, as well as sending our developers out there to build stuff for you to work and live in.
    Puh-leeze! I'm convinced that Colorado politicians bring Texans up here simply to drive slow on our streets and highways to keep the speeds down. Though, just because they are being told to drive slowly [allegedly] doesn't mean they have to drive like their mentally slow as well. Maybe it's the altitude that slows 'em down.
    "Action expresses priorities."
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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by ADG View Post
    Puh-leeze! I'm convinced that Colorado politicians bring Texans up here simply to drive slow on our streets and highways to keep the speeds down. Though, just because they are being told to drive slowly [allegedly] doesn't mean they have to drive like their mentally slow as well. Maybe it's the altitude that slows 'em down.
    They should allow us to openly hunt Texans and Californians in this state. Those folk...man they're they same; but they like to pretend they ain't.
    Last edited by Ikari; 05-11-11 at 01:03 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    See, here's the thing. You keep saying "it still seems like too small an example"; but it's larger than any example you've given. I have real data, you have supposition. Faced with that choice, I'm going with the measurement. You can wax philosophical all you want, but in the end everything comes down to measurement. I have it, you don't.

    Boulder is different because I think they got themselves designated in a way where they can ban guns on their campus. I don't think they allow guns there. Which is good because if any sane person had a gun in that city, he'd shoot all those god damned trustafarians.
    Not completely true. When I've given an example, it has been much larger. See the statisitcs I present above.

    But, take your claim, I have been looking and as of yet have not found a link. I will keep looking.


    The gun is a tool to do so. It can indeed be used for defense of life, liberty, and property particularly against agressive agents or even our own government should it be necessary.
    Can be. Can also be used otherwise. Much like all tools. However, that really isn't the issue. There are limits to what we can carry no matter if we THINK it is needed for defense.


    And when it does you can maybe say something. Before that point, mind your own damned business.
    It is a matter of when and not if that it will intrude on someone's life.


    Their realm of expertise is control over a populace. It's easier to control an unarmed populace than an armed one.
    Frankly, today, the populaced cannot be armed enough to prevent control if that is what they wanted. At least the way I read your comment. But, for every day opperations, smooth traffic control, class atmosphere, peaceful protest, you may have a point.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They should allow us to openly hunt Texans and Californians in this state. Those folk...man they're they same; but they like to pretend they ain't.
    Ugh... don't get me started on the Californians! All I am saying is that there are mountains in California, so use them. Please.
    "Action expresses priorities."
    ~Mohandas Gandhi

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not completely true. When I've given an example, it has been much larger. See the statisitcs I present above.

    But, take your claim, I have been looking and as of yet have not found a link. I will keep looking.
    Those statistics are of general gun use and ownership. Not of realistic increased/decreased risks by allowing students to carry on campus. That's the data you need. What you really need is a school which allows guns and has a much higher (statistically significant) gun crime rate on campus than the surrounding area. Only, you won't find that for a few reasons. One is that there is a limited data set, the other is that students even when allowed to carry guns rarely do. The ones who do choose to carry are responsible with the care and use of their firearms on campus. For all the campuses across America which allow guns to be carried, none of them are having gun crime problems above the background. That's just simple fact. That's what you have to deal with.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Can be. Can also be used otherwise. Much like all tools. However, that really isn't the issue. There are limits to what we can carry no matter if we THINK it is needed for defense.
    There are limits on what the government can restrict from us. No matter if we THINK it's necessary to ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It is a matter of when and not if that it will intrude on someone's life.
    And when it happens you can do something. Our system of government force against the rights and liberties of the individual (force you wish to enact or keep present) is not proactive, it is reactive. Someone has to do something first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Frankly, today, the populaced cannot be armed enough to prevent control if that is what they wanted. At least the way I read your comment. But, for every day opperations, smooth traffic control, class atmosphere, peaceful protest, you may have a point.
    That's more due to desire than ability. But we must retain the tools for revolt regardless. A people without the means of overthrowing their government are a people enslaved.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    More terrifying than the deranged gunman being the only armed person in the room?
    Most amateurs attempting to get a concealed weapon into play would more than likely turn what could be a hostage situation into a blood bath.

    I'm not against concealed carry, I've been licensed for a long time, just pointing out the simple fact that most individuals aren't capable of effectively drawing a concealed weapon under stress and hitting anything smaller than the broad side of a barn. For some laughs visit a shooting range and watch a few classes for people qualifying for concealed carry licenses under controlled conditions. I can't remember the statistics but for many that'll be the last time they ever fire a weapon. Not unlike someone who has three hours of driving lessons on quiet streets and then being put in the middle of NASCAR race; a greater danger to everyone else than the race itself.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    These are fairly widely known stats. But I'll give you some links:

    A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting, than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
    A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting, a criminal assault or homicide, or an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
    Journal of Trauma, 1998

    Stop Handgun Violence: The Facts

    The largest category of firearms fatality is suicide, not homicide. In 1997, 54 percent of all gun deaths were suicides, and 42 percent were homicides.16

    (snip)

    Self Defense

    For every time a gun in the home is used in a self-defense homicide, a gun will be used in�


    1.3 unintentional deaths

    4.6 criminal homicides

    37 suicides22

    VPC - Handgun Ban Fact Sheet

    In 2007, there were 613 fatal firearm accidents in the United States, constituting 0.5% of 123,706 fatal accidents that year.[120]

    (snip)

    In 2007, there were roughly 15,698 emergency room visits for non-fatal firearm accidents . . . .

    Gun Control

    The last one, though hardly a non-biased site, clearly shows over 16,000 people shot themselves in 2007.
    While none of those could be accused of being unbiased sites, their best evidence is not even close to being overwhelming. Guns constitute a half of a percent of the fatal accidents in the US? Wow…staggering. What are we doing to address the other, more pressing issues that are causing the other 99.5% of the fatalities in the country? Let’s take a look at those charts. We won’t even mention those horrendously dangerous vehicles. What about the people who are burned, suffocated or drowned? Hell, more people are killed by the environment than by gun accidents. Non-fatalities are the same story. Fire, water and the environment are ALL more dangerous than firearms.

    At the same time, according to your own sources over 80 million Americans own at least one gun. If there were 613 accidents involving guns, which means that .000007% of gun owners were injured by their firearms. Not exactly the most threatening thing out there, now is it?

    However,

    A U.S. Justice Department study based on crime data from 1974-1985 found:

    • 42% of Americans will be the victim of a completed violent crime (assault, robbery, rape) in the course of their lives

    • 83% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime

    • 52% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime more than once[24]
    You tell me what you think is more likely, shooting yourself accidentally or being the victim of a violent crime?


    A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]

    • 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"

    • 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"

    • 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]
    There are some statistics I can get behind.

    Frankly, yes, guns are can be dangerous. Yes, people can injure themselves when they mishandle a gun. However, one of the things the anti-gun lobby seems to forget is that it’s entirely possible to handle a gun responsibly. A firearm is not something that requires a mystical level of training to be proficient in, it just takes some common sense and practice, just like everything else we learn to do. That’s no reason to restrict the access of law-abiding citizens
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    It's not a question of total percentage of accidents. What happens with other things is meaningless. The question was what is more likley to happen with a weapon and not how it compared to other things.

    I used the last source for you, so you would accept the source biased your direction. Earlier in this thread someone dealt with the flaws in the numbers you're using. The biased site uses those numbers because it fits their POV. However, those are from a survey that only goes off what people say, not any verified information. As one source noted, those numbers are much too high when match against known crime statisitics. There are lots of reasons to doubt those numbers.

    No, the numbers I quote are totals of actual deaths and sucides, and not some merely saying, yeah, I knew someone who committed sucide or shot themselves. Surely you can see the difference?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

    Quote Originally Posted by croniccynic View Post
    Most amateurs attempting to get a concealed weapon into play would more than likely turn what could be a hostage situation into a blood bath.

    I'm not against concealed carry, I've been licensed for a long time, just pointing out the simple fact that most individuals aren't capable of effectively drawing a concealed weapon under stress and hitting anything smaller than the broad side of a barn. For some laughs visit a shooting range and watch a few classes for people qualifying for concealed carry licenses under controlled conditions. I can't remember the statistics but for many that'll be the last time they ever fire a weapon. Not unlike someone who has three hours of driving lessons on quiet streets and then being put in the middle of NASCAR race; a greater danger to everyone else than the race itself.
    ...and why should the fact that some people choose not further their training negatively impact those who do wish to carry responsibly. Should everyone be barred from racing in NASCAR because a few haven't taken the time to practice the track? There are already laws in place to address the impoper use of firearms. There need not be extra restrictions on those who do choose to be responsible gun owners.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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