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Thread: Obama administration fights to save healthcare law

  1. #31
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    Re: Obama administration fights to save healthcare law

    It won't make it to the SCOTUS and survive. The entire mess relies on forcing American's to buy a good or service from a private company else pay a fine, just for living. No one in their right mind wants a Gov't with that sort of power.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Obama administration fights to save healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    ROTFLOL... I merely paraphrased Milton Friedman (see below), and he and his Chicago School and Austrian School of Economics have a pretty good record, and Milton Friedman calls the system Socialist-Communist and Communist. It is what it is.



    This quote was before the dung called ObamaKare as Friedman died in 2006... now we have government picking favorites too, assisting those with connections... just like in the USSR. It's Animal Farm Kare.

    Would you like to try again?

    .
    Yes, you prove you can quote and misquote anything on the internet. Nothing you describe has been remotely proposed. Your extreeme hyperbole gets wilder by the minute.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama administration fights to save healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, you prove you can quote and misquote anything on the internet. Nothing you describe has been remotely proposed. Your extreeme hyperbole gets wilder by the minute.
    Hey boo, you forgot the little koolaid drinker at the end of your post. Can't forget about him!

    Where is he?



    There he is, man, I missed him! Glad to see he's ok!

    Oh and Mr Vich, your avatar is so.....feminine.

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    Re: Obama administration fights to save healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    Do you understand the difference between the countries budget and deficit and a businesses budget and profits?
    Duh....Um Sure Olly! Cuz I am edumacated.

    Saying that a bill will save the country money is not the same as saying it will save businesses money. Find a link where Obama said that businesses will save lots of money right off the bat because of this legislation and you'll have a point. Until then you're talking about two different things.
    Well, you certainly have a lot of caveats in there..

    Let's see if we can be honest here....Obama has been selling this ever since Pelosi rammed it through in the middle of the night..

    Now the administration is back with even more ammunition aimed at silencing critics. A new report attempts to quantify exactly how much individuals and businesses might save once the law is phased in starting in 2014.

    According to the report, premiums are expected to be lower than they otherwise would be without the law. For example, it says, middle-income families could save as much as $2,300 by purchasing coverage through the new health insurance exchanges; small businesses could save as much as $350 per family policy; and even large businesses will save, it says, because more healthier people will have insurance, thus better spreading risk.

    snip {Opposition says:}

    AHIP says that while the law may save individuals and businesses money through tax credits and other mechanisms, that's not the same as slowing the growth of health spending. "While tax credits are important to help people pay for coverage, tax credits do not bring down the growth of medical costs or reduce health insurance premiums."

    Administration Says Health Law Will Lower Premiums, But Critics Disagree : Shots - Health Blog : NPR

    While this may not be the smoking gun in meeting all your criteria, it certainly shows where the disingenuous argument that Obama is making. So in a way you do indeed have Obama out there making an argument that his plan will save immediately, when this isn't true.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Obama administration fights to save healthcare law

    health care spending has been a major problem before refom. Right now we spend more for less. If we spent more for more, that would be an improvement. Spending less for more would be better still. We need more work on reform, to go further and not with less.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama administration fights to save healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, you prove you can quote and misquote anything on the internet. Nothing you describe has been remotely proposed. Your extreeme hyperbole gets wilder by the minute.
    The quotes are accurate... deadly accurate, and "the Communist system with Communist results" paraphrase was designed to elicit a knee jerkistan reaction like yours and roughdraft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    health care spending has been a major problem before refom. Right now we spend more for less. If we spent more for more, that would be an improvement. Spending less for more would be better still. We need more work on reform, to go further and not with less.
    You live in a fantasy world... see below... this from a state with vast experience with bureaucracy und ordnung... and they're farked.

    dontworrybehappy... you're proven right yet again. (see Boo above).

    Boo, Hazlnut, rdraft...

    This is the result of "Socialist-Communist" systems... waiting, rationing and death panels (because someone higher up must decide who gets what... because Lord knows... that is out of the individual's hands. Right now I have a very close friend in Kanada waiting for a correction to a botched eye surgery. The surgery took place about 18-months ago, and now this person is waiting to bee seen for the second procedure.)

    „Welcher Patient geht leer aus?“
    (Which patient is going to go empty handed?)
    Eckhard Nagel transplant surgeon from the National Ethics Council explains the need to ration medical care

    FOCUS: German health politicians will assert that full coverage of the population would remain with the forefront of medicine. In contrast, the National Ethics Council now proposes a new public debate about rationing. Is this really necessary?

    Nagel: Announcements, for each treatment was at all times hochleistungsmedizinische feasible, I think is a dangerous suppression of reality. Rationing is part of everyday life in medicine and will increase in future (ZIMMER PERSONAL NOTE: in socialist systems). Even today, patients have to wait for important operations, because such are not enough seats for its intensive care are available. Also needs to be decided in transplantation medicine, which patient receives a saving institution and which no seats, and possibly died on the waiting list. This dilemma is considered too little.

    FOCUS: Why has not held a public discussion about rationing?

    Nagel: The allocation of limited health goods from cost factors is an extremely sensitive issue on which our society is ill prepared. Politicians have made the experience that she had rather inconvenient truth. Otherwise they run the risk of being punished as a bearer of bad news - for example at the ballot box. Despite everything, I believe it is their duty to clearly identify the problem situation, even if there is no easy way out of it visible.

    FOCUS: Can we avoid the limited allocation, as we raise more money for the health system?

    Nails: At the moment already. However, medical progress has no foreseeable limits. We are made in each case to the question of what we can afford. Is it even possible to provide all health goods as before to after the of equality? Or should the treatment after the budget of the patient, his age or his social embeddedness judge? Must pay an injured his therapy out of pocket if he caused the accident itself? Such scenarios have to respond, and that takes is an ethical debate.

    FOCUS: Should 85-year-old fear that they will receive an artificial hip or heart valve?

    Nagel: I think so. But of course, decisions on ethical dilemmas remain conflict is not enough. We must strive just to the best of all strategies. This decision process needs to be maximized transparent (ZIMMER PERSONAL NOTE: ROTFLMFAO). Only then will the people get the feeling that they are involved in the deliberations, even if they do not approve of (ZIMMER PERSONAL NOTE: ROTFLMFAO... THEY CANNOT COMPLAIN WHEN THEY ARE DEAD).

    FOCUS: What do you fear, when politicians and citizens continue to ignore that rationing has to be?

    Nagel: This can have fatal consequences, in which the patient - and we all suffer - unnecessarily sometime. As will be discussed today about the cost of health only in the short term and with slogans, emotional statement to the situation. This is an unfortunate way to kick start the discussion, because it causes anxiety. Citizens feel existentially delivered.

    Eckhard Nagel, 46, a health scientist of the University of Bayreuth.

    The Augsburg surgeon was appointed in 2001 in the National Ethics Council.

    Medizin: „Welcher Patient geht leer aus?“ - News - FOCUS Online
    Last edited by zimmer; 05-10-11 at 02:26 PM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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    Re: Obama administration fights to save healthcare law

    Zimmer, no one has proposed anything like a communist system, so you not only are hyperbolic, but you're using a complete strawman argument. Come on, tone it down to something more like what s actually being proposed.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama administration fights to save healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    It won't make it to the SCOTUS and survive. The entire mess relies on forcing American's to buy a good or service from a private company else pay a fine, just for living. No one in their right mind wants a Gov't with that sort of power.
    Apparently the Heritage Foundation did.

    Obama says Heritage Foundation is source of health exchange idea

    Sorry, V, this one has been checked and double checked when the Heritage Foundation argued the first rating of 'Mostly True' was too generous to Obama.

    EDITOR'S NOTE: An analysis of this comment by President Barack Obama was published on April 1, 2010. After it appeared, the Heritage Foundation's communications office contacted us to argue that our rating of Mostly True was too generous to the president. We did some additional reporting to review our ruling. Our second round of reporting -- primarily talking to conservative policy experts outside of Heritage -- solidified our initial conclusions. Below is the updated version of our story, which retains the rating of Mostly True, published April 26, 2010.
    Keep in mind the Massachusetts law mandates that every citizen in the state obtain health coverage...

    On numerous occasions, Heritage scholars wrote approvingly of the exchange system in Massachusetts, known as the Connector. In a paper about the Massachusetts plan published on April 11, 2006, Edmund Haislmaier, a Heritage fellow in health care policy, wrote of the "truly significant and transformative health system changes that the legislation would set in motion."

    Specifically, Haislmaier wrote that "this concept of organizing a state's insurance markets around a central clearinghouse represents a dramatic departure from recent state health insurance reform proposals. States have spent the past 15 years trying to expand health care coverage to small-business employees, with virtually no positive results. The Massachusetts legislation represents a bipartisan commitment to move away from the policies that have largely failed to make progress in covering the uninsured for the past 15 years."
    You always talk about people taking personal responsibility, but when there is a moderately regulated market for you to purchase health care, and the Gov says shop here and choose a program that fits your budget and needs, you all complain... "What if we don't want to choose?"

    Like the song says: You still have made a choice.

    And what you call a "fine" is a actually small amount on your taxes to a general fund to take responsibility for yourself and not rely on the rest of us to foot the hospital bill.

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    Re: Obama administration fights to save healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Zimmer, no one has proposed anything like a communist system, so you not only are hyperbolic, but you're using a complete strawman argument. Come on, tone it down to something more like what s actually being proposed.
    I'll side with Milton, and Solzhenitsyn... and their defining USSR Kare and finding "A Way Out of Soviet-Style Health Care".

    Milton Friedman: A Way Out of Soviet-Style Health Care - WSJ.com

    I know you mean well and your Lib buddies have inner Primal Screams when they're tied to promoting Communist styled systems (not that Michael Moore and other Leftist mouth pieces would do that) but all I can say is... change your spots.

    .
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  10. #40
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    Re: Obama administration fights to save healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Apparently the Heritage Foundation did.

    Obama says Heritage Foundation is source of health exchange idea

    Sorry, V, this one has been checked and double checked when the Heritage Foundation argued the first rating of 'Mostly True' was too generous to Obama.



    Keep in mind the Massachusetts law mandates that every citizen in the state obtain health coverage...



    You always talk about people taking personal responsibility, but when there is a moderately regulated market for you to purchase health care, and the Gov says shop here and choose a program that fits your budget and needs, you all complain... "What if we don't want to choose?"

    Like the song says: You still have made a choice.

    And what you call a "fine" is a actually small amount on your taxes to a general fund to take responsibility for yourself and not rely on the rest of us to foot the hospital bill.
    Yes, like the song says. But at the moment it is still your own choice, under what you and others would like to see is NOT a choice, but rather a mandate enforced by the force of penalty, and law. That is not a free choice, and is not American by any standard.

    All things aside, one has to wonder why it is that proponents of this law, continue to use rhetoric, and WHO examples when they are routinely debunked. Mass care is failing, and to think that this plan can be expanded to not one state, but the entire nation is futile.

    Other nations are trying to get out of their state run systems, while we ignore their example and rush toward it....Not smart at all.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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