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Thread: Greece Considers Exit from Euro Zone

  1. #11
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    Re: Greece Considers Exit from Euro Zone

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    As a German, I say I wish my government finally opens the door to a transfer union of some kind, "eurobonds" and the like ... simply because I believe this option is still better than all others:

    As long as Merkel insists on austerity measures in exchange for aids, she fuels anti-German sentiment. No matter that it were others who spent like drunken sailors -- no, it's always the fault of the Germans. When the people in Greece and Italy, maybe soon Portugal and Spain too, meet hardship, as a result of their excessive spending, they will blame Germany. When Germany does not just flush down its well earned money down the toilet for them, but instead asks something in return -- that's apparently basically the same as Hitler did in WW2.

    The British are the worst. They have always hated Germany and Europe, and continue to do so -- at least their press is. It's nothing but one giant chauvinistic anti-German hate machine. For them, Merkel already is Ms. Hitler II.

    So on the long run, Germany would probably have to pay less, when it agrees to eurobonds without conditions now. Sure, it would slow down our economy by forcing us to pay higher interest rates, but that's still cheaper than being blamed by everyone else for causing the eurozone to collapse, the EU along with it, and even profiting from the crisis of others ... especially if that finally results in many former EU countries slipping into tyranny of fascist or socialist kind, as would inevitably happen, if there was no longer an EU to keep them sane.

    This all could very well happen, if this nice plan the German government and EU is working on, does not work out. So why not take bolder steps in the first place, dear Angela? You don't want Germany to be responsible for the biggest catastrophe of the 21st century, like it was in the 20st century already, do you?
    I would like to stand up for Ms Merkel. First any comparison to WWII and Hilter is way over the top. Tens of millions perished during WWII and all that the evil government at the time did. To compare Merkel to this would be to trivialize one of the worst regimes in history.

    As to your comments regarding Eurobonds, I am not sure that is the correct answer. It could be a short term fix for governments and people who have no interest in living within their means. It might be better for Germany and France to acknowledge the mistake that is the Euro, at least to the extent that they allowed in countries from Southern Europe who have such different views about government spending and living within their means. If I was a German citizen I would be looking for an exit of at least the So. European nations from the Euro. Least you wind up paying a few hundred Euros every few years to bail out the south.

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    Re: Greece Considers Exit from Euro Zone

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    I would like to stand up for Ms Merkel. First any comparison to WWII and Hilter is way over the top. Tens of millions perished during WWII and all that the evil government at the time did. To compare Merkel to this would be to trivialize one of the worst regimes in history.

    As to your comments regarding Eurobonds, I am not sure that is the correct answer. It could be a short term fix for governments and people who have no interest in living within their means. It might be better for Germany and France to acknowledge the mistake that is the Euro, at least to the extent that they allowed in countries from Southern Europe who have such different views about government spending and living within their means. If I was a German citizen I would be looking for an exit of at least the So. European nations from the Euro. Least you wind up paying a few hundred Euros every few years to bail out the south.
    Yes. Just for the record, what I wrote above was tongue-in-cheek to some extent, as you probably realized.

    But it's true I am not really against eurobonds, even if that means a short-term disadvantage for my country. The rise of nationalism we see these days in Europe worries me. And I am afraid Merkel is fueling it -- although it's only fair in theory to ask something in return for your money.

    So ideally, a way should be found to save the struggling southern economies, without giving up the goal to give effective incentives for them to improve their economies. But how can that be achieved? I don't see this "EMFS security shield" is a solution, it only buys more time, and soon, the whole gamble will start all over again.

    So why not bold steps now? If all eurozone countries had the same interest rate -- which would be higher than Germany's, but low enough to allow Greece, Italy and all others to manage their situations --, the euro would be in less trouble than the US dollar.

    And it would even be cheaper for Germany on the long run. If Europe breaks apart, with all consequences that arise from that, that would definitely be cheaper. And I am afraid we are closer to this possibility already, than many seem to realize.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Greece Considers Exit from Euro Zone

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Yes. Just for the record, what I wrote above was tongue-in-cheek to some extent, as you probably realized.

    But it's true I am not really against eurobonds, even if that means a short-term disadvantage for my country. The rise of nationalism we see these days in Europe worries me. And I am afraid Merkel is fueling it -- although it's only fair in theory to ask something in return for your money.

    So ideally, a way should be found to save the struggling southern economies, without giving up the goal to give effective incentives for them to improve their economies. But how can that be achieved? I don't see this "EMFS security shield" is a solution, it only buys more time, and soon, the whole gamble will start all over again.

    So why not bold steps now? If all eurozone countries had the same interest rate -- which would be higher than Germany's, but low enough to allow Greece, Italy and all others to manage their situations --, the euro would be in less trouble than the US dollar.

    And it would even be cheaper for Germany on the long run. If Europe breaks apart, with all consequences that arise from that, that would definitely be cheaper. And I am afraid we are closer to this possibility already, than many seem to realize.
    My sense that the bold step the Eurozone needs is to stand up to the likes of Greece and say you have not lived by the rules, thus you are out of the EU. This bols step would not only fix the Greek problem by letting them have to find a way to fix their problems on their own but also be a reminder to the rest of Southern Europe that they have to get their house in order.

    If I were from Germany or France it would bother me that I be asked to bail out nations that have not done the hard work that our nation(s) have.

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    Re: Greece Considers Exit from Euro Zone

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    My sense that the bold step the Eurozone needs is to stand up to the likes of Greece and say you have not lived by the rules, thus you are out of the EU. This bols step would not only fix the Greek problem by letting them have to find a way to fix their problems on their own but also be a reminder to the rest of Southern Europe that they have to get their house in order.

    If I were from Germany or France it would bother me that I be asked to bail out nations that have not done the hard work that our nation(s) have.
    Not that I'm an expert, but you sometimes hear that maybe that's not a good idea. Kicking Greece out would make them go bankrupt at once, which means many German and especially French banks would have to write off all the money they lended Greece. That could cause another domino reaction among German and French banks, much like 2008 again. So maybe, by saving Greece, we just save our own banks?

    It's hard for me to catch on all these economic implications these days. It seems you find experts to back of any opinion and its opposite.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Greece Considers Exit from Euro Zone

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Not that I'm an expert, but you sometimes hear that maybe that's not a good idea. Kicking Greece out would make them go bankrupt at once, which means many German and especially French banks would have to write off all the money they lended Greece. That could cause another domino reaction among German and French banks, much like 2008 again. So maybe, by saving Greece, we just save our own banks?

    It's hard for me to catch on all these economic implications these days. It seems you find experts to back of any opinion and its opposite.
    I am not an expert either. That being said it is my thought that less damage will be done to the French and German banks if they make an example of Greece and do not let happen to Italy which would be a much bigger problem.

    Perhaps the German and French governments should shoulder some of the burden and buy the bonds from the banks at 50% like the proposal made to Greece. So the banks would be able to have a manageable problem, the taxpayers take some of the burden as well. I think that is fair as the banks bought these bonds with the thought that the governments of the EU had some rules they had to follow and were allowed not to. That is not the sole problem for the banks to resolve but the governments especially in Brussels should have handled. Not sure why private institutions should be penalized because the governments did not do their jobs. In addition if the governments let the banks take the full hit, this will hurt the domestic economies of France and Germany.

    But to keep putting more money into Greece seems a waste. The problem will not get better just prolonged and more costly. 20-20 hindsight says it would have been better to let Greece default years ago when their level of debt became unsustainable. Now the real lesson is will the other debtor nations ( including the US) heed the lessons of Greece and stop adding to their untenable deficit positions.

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