• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Two imams pulled from plane bound for North Carolina

ecofarm said:
There are better reasons but that one is ok. I'm just trying to be results-oriented.


(Full disclosure: I'd like to see all institutionalized religion dismantled.)
Click to expand...

Results do not always justify the means. Nuking all Muslim countries would most likely wipe out a majority of radical Islam and their capability to launch wide-scale attacks, but just because it might wipe out radical Islam the results by no way justifies the means.
 
Jetboogieman said:
That's only one way of looking at it.

You of course can't answer the question. And your statement was completely and utterly rediculous.

But please continue.
Click to expand...

It is one way of looking at it, and it gives the benefit to the pilots and crew. These are serious people doing serious work in a sensitive time. I give them the benefit of the doubt... especially considering we know virtually ZERO about the circumstances.

I answered your question, because you, a Leftist do not like the answer does not discount it.

alexa said:
After 7/7 I was on a bus when a Muslim came on with a back pack and fiddled with it looking nervous. I got nervous and even considered telling the bus driver.
Click to expand...
So what you're telling me that you're a latent bigot? No... you're not. You're wired to survive, and you realized/noted a potential heightened threat.

I feel for those of that faith because they are looked at twice. They and their community should vehemently speak out against the idiots. They haven't... and that adds to the problem.

I will defer the remainder to Alan Keyes who gave a damn good answer during the SC republican Primary debate in 2000:

KEYES: I know everybody thinks that this doing some favor to a racial group, but if our police and enforcement people have the experience that a given crime is disproportionately being committed by folks from a given ethnic group, we are now going to pass a law that says you can't notice that?

I -- I...

KING: But they haven't done the crime yet.

KEYES: Excuse me, no, no. All I'm saying is we're going to pass a law and we're going to enforce a law that says that we can't notice the characteristics of individuals who commit crimes and develop profiles to help folks pursue the solving of crimes based on our experience.

Experience by the way is not prejudice. Prejudice is an opinion you form apart from experience, prior to experience. An opinion formed based on experience is not prejudice. It is judgment. And I think our law enforcement officers ought to be able to...

KING: You wouldn't mind being stopped by a car if there was a high prevalence of...

KEYES: You know the person I would blame for that? If there are black folks out there disproportionately committing certain kinds of crime, my parents raised me to know that I represent the race in every thing I do. And I wish that everybody would take that attitude and stop committing crimes and doing things that bring a bad reputation on to people.

KING: But if you were stopped...

KEYES: That's what I resent.

KING: ... if you were stopped you wouldn't be angry?

KEYES: I just told you who I would be angry at.
Click to expand...

As infinite said some time ago, airport security is where you should be checking. If you have doubts that your security is efficient make sure it is. Otherwise you will see the bogeyman everywhere and harm the innocent.
Click to expand...
Sure, it is where you should be checking but that doesn't mean you turn off your brain after the security check. Had that been done the shoe bomber and Gonch bomber would have succeeded.

Wiseone said:
Atta_gate.jpg


Ohh...

But seriously to the pilot? Fire his ass.
Click to expand...

Seriously... people like you are setting the environment for getting people killed.

.
 
Last edited:
zimmer said:
It is one way of looking at it, and it gives the benefit to the pilots and crew. These are serious people doing serious work in a sensitive time. I give them the benefit of the doubt... especially considering we know virtually ZERO about the circumstances.

I answered your question, because you, a Leftist do not like the answer does not discount it.

So what you're telling me that you're a latent bigot? No... you're not. You're wired to survive, and you realized/noted a potential heightened threat.

I feel for those of that faith because they are looked at twice. They and their community should vehemently speak out against the idiots. They haven't... and that adds to the problem.

I will defer the remainder to Alan Keyes who gave a damn good answer during the SC republican Primary debate in 2000:



Sure, it is where you should be checking but that doesn't mean you turn off your brain after the security check. Had that been done the shoe bomber and Gonch bomber would have succeeded.



Seriously... people like you are setting the environment for getting people killed.

.
Click to expand...

Wait. So in your opinion it's reasonable to kick someone off the plane because people feel uncomfortable even after a second screening?

Can I kick you off a plane just because I feel uncomfortable with a conservative on board? I really think you might be a terrorist. Forget the fact that you've already been rescreened and searched by hand. I'm still uncomfortable, get off my plane.
 
TheNextEra said:
So you think people should just change their religion and not wear their religious clothes because IDIOTS might get scared of them?
Click to expand...

Not change their religion. Just have some empathy about how people may interpret their garb three days after OBL was killed and radical Muslims that do dress that way have vowed revenge. It's just plain old common sense.
 
I remember a news event from a few years ago where some Imams from Minneapolis pulled a stunt where they chanted loudly before boarding the plane, spoke loudly against the United States while on the plane, made bizarre requests involving their seat belts, refused to take their assigned seats and then positioned themselves at strategic areas throughout the plane. The original reports then were similar to these where it was simplified to a case of passengers becoming nervous. Of course, there was good cause for them to be nervous since these creatures were trying to cause a stir and/or going on a test run, but the case was framed by many as "Islamophobia".

It would be helpful to have more information on how they acted rather than just how they looked, since the key to any pilot's judgement call should be behavior rather than appearance.
 
Jetboogieman said:
So I've never personally violated another persons civil rights.

Good.

I was worried for a second.
Click to expand...
But you support an ideology and those that do.

.
 
MaggieD said:
Not change their religion. Just have some empathy about how people may interpret their garb three days after OBL was killed and radical Muslims that do dress that way have vowed revenge. It's just plain old common sense.
Click to expand...

Plain old common sense would have people not feeling uncomfortable anymore after a rescreening.
 
Gardener said:
I remember a news event from a few years ago where some Imams from Minneapolis pulled a stunt where they chanted loudly before boarding the plane, spoke loudly against the United States while on the plane, made bizarre requests involving their seat belts, refused to take their assigned seats and then positioned themselves at strategic areas throughout the plane. The original reports then were similar to these where it was simplified to a case of passengers becoming nervous. Of course, there was good cause for them to be nervous since these creatures were trying to cause a stir and/or going on a test run, but the case was framed by many as "Islamophobia".

It would be helpful to have more information on how they acted rather than just how they looked, since the key to any pilot's judgement call should be behavior rather than appearance.
Click to expand...

Screened. A. Second. Time.
 
They could be ninjas or know magic.
 
MaggieD said:
Not change their religion. Just have some empathy about how people may interpret their garb three days after OBL was killed and radical Muslims that do dress that way have vowed revenge. It's just plain old common sense.
Click to expand...

So basically we should bow to the will of the stupid. No. Stupid people are stupid and we should not cater to them. I am actually shamed that people in my country think something so inherently vile as this. People should let their actions be controlled by retarded people. People like you making excuses why we should discriminate against people's religion in the name of protecting the stupid make me fear for the longterm prospects of this country.
 
Gardener said:
I remember a news event from a few years ago where some Imams from Minneapolis pulled a stunt where they chanted loudly before boarding the plane, spoke loudly against the United States while on the plane, made bizarre requests involving their seat belts, refused to take their assigned seats and then positioned themselves at strategic areas throughout the plane. The original reports then were similar to these where it was simplified to a case of passengers becoming nervous. Of course, there was good cause for them to be nervous since these creatures were trying to cause a stir and/or going on a test run, but the case was framed by many as "Islamophobia".

It would be helpful to have more information on how they acted rather than just how they looked, since the key to any pilot's judgement call should be behavior rather than appearance.
Click to expand...

So you have no evidence that the victims did anything, but you just want to throw it out there to kinda plant the idea that maybe the victims are to blame. Classy!
 
Deuce said:
Wait. So in your opinion it's reasonable to kick someone off the plane because people feel uncomfortable even after a second screening?
Click to expand...
Yes. I think that is perfectly clear. The last line of defense is the flight crew and pilots.

Can I kick you off a plane just because I feel uncomfortable with a conservative on board? I really think you might be a terrorist. Forget the fact that you've already been rescreened and searched by hand. I'm still uncomfortable, get off my plane.
Click to expand...
If Conservatives were responsible for endless terror attacks, thousand upon thousands... then yes... Conservatives should be under extra special scrutiny. Alan Keyes spelled it out clearly I thought.

Screening isn't perfect... I think you are familiar with the attempted shoe and underwear bombers. Or are you not? I think you're aware of 911? Are you? I think you are aware of the fact that we put a bullet through the forehead of bin Laden. Are you? I think you might be aware that airport security has been breached... aren't you?

I think you might be aware of the fact they claimed massive revenge? Are you? You're likely aware they have sleeper cells throughout the western world... No?

This wasn't the Bad News Bears or Christian Bitter Clingers making thousands of terror attacks and threatening revenge was it? Didn't think so.

.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Dea said:
Muslim group: two imams pulled from plane bound for North Carolina - CNN.com

I understand the fear after all that has happened over the past few years. However is it necessary to pull two individuals who have passed security off a plane, because they've made some people uncomfortable?

thoughts?
Click to expand...

This is wrong on so many levels. Imams bought, the tickets and passed the screening.

Everyone gets a good looking at but you cannot assume you can look at a terrorist and spot them.
 
TheNextEra said:
Results do not always justify the means. Nuking all Muslim countries would most likely wipe out a majority of radical Islam and their capability to launch wide-scale attacks, but just because it might wipe out radical Islam the results by no way justifies the means.
Click to expand...

We were not talking about nukes. We were talking about societal pressure (from idiots, granted) helping people abandon fanaticism.


ric27 said:
you cannot assume you can look at a terrorist and spot them.
Click to expand...

That's true! Who did that?
 
Last edited:
ecofarm said:
That's true! Who did that?
Click to expand...

AQ could just simply use Caucasian Russians, Chechens, Kazhaks or White Americans to carry out their ops
 
The world is neither perfect or fair. The Muslim religion has been tarnished and continues to be tarnished by so many extremists.

At Fresno State University in Calif. they had their Bulldog logo taken by a very violent street gang.There has even been FSU supporters attacked by rival gangs for wearing Bulldog shirts. It is not fair at all. The police have taken great lengths to countner this by putting so many Bulldog gangmembers in prison now that they are one of the most violent gangs in prison.
The students and fans of FSU do not deserve this but are caught in this crossfire. The main way they can fight back is to crushing the gang which there has been much involvement in doing.


If your image has been tarnish you have to do all you can to retrieve it. The
Muslim population has not been seen to actively attack these Bin Laden supporters as the people who have attacked the Fred Phelps morons, Just saying.
 
Last edited:
Redress said:
So you have no evidence that the victims did anything, but you just want to throw it out there to kinda plant the idea that maybe the victims are to blame. Classy!
Click to expand...

So typical for you, you did not comprehend much of anything so you decided to say something unintelligent and derisive.

I haven't judged whether they are guilty or not. By your use of the term "victim", however, you HAVE prejudged, and all without any evidence. Until the case is investigated, we do not know whether it was their behavior that drew the response of the captain or their looks. If it was just their looks, then they are innocent, but the article does not mention what the pilot might have seen by way of behavior.
 
ric27 said:
AQ could just simply use Caucasian Russians, Chechens, Kazhaks or White Americans to carry out their ops
Click to expand...

Or Jews!


I mean, who assumed "you can look at a terrorist and spot them"? I think we are on about a disturbance on an airplane leading to the pilot(s) deciding to abort taxi. I didn't read anything about the pilot thinking they were terrorists, or doing so merely by looking at them.

Here's a transcript of the plane's radio transmission:
"I've got two terrorists on board - I got a pretty good look at 'em when they boarded and they are either ninjas or know magic.
No, they haven't done anything yet, but I'm sure. I'm gonna taxi back. Prep special-ops."


You think that's what happened? Why wasn't delta-force waiting at the terminal? Why would a plane with terrorists on it go back to the terminal?
 
Last edited:
Redress said:
So basically we should bow to the will of the stupid. No. Stupid people are stupid and we should not cater to them. I am actually shamed that people in my country think something so inherently vile as this. People should let their actions be controlled by retarded people. People like you making excuses why we should discriminate against people's religion in the name of protecting the stupid make me fear for the longterm prospects of this country.
Click to expand...

No, they should respect the feelings of those Americans who are nervous just that they're flying -- and more nervous when they see two Muslims board a plane in full regalia at this particular time. And I'm betting they're helluva lot smarter than you are -- that they understood what happened and hold no malice. They haven't yet gotten into the American Mindset of "Who Can I Sue??"

Inherently vile? Hyperbole much? Tolerance runs both ways, yes? Or maybe not on Redress's road...

Edit:
In stark contrast to the violent image of Islam, they turned the other cheek: they didn't mind since they were in favor of stringent security measures. Even with a clear opportunity to sue the daylights out of Atlantic Southeast Airlines, they only want the pilot to undergo sensitivity training.
Click to expand...
http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979302566

After seeing their picture, I can't agree with the pilot. The second screening should have been enough, if even necessary. I doubt the pilot will be fired -- I believe work rules let him put anyone off the plane. Hope they got a free flight and a voucher. It'd be interesting to know if the passengers were concerned -- or if the concern was all that of the captain and/or crew. We live in straaaaange times...

http://privateinvesigations.blogspot.com/2011/05/two-imams-removed-from-flight-to-north.html
 
Last edited:
ecofarm said:
Or Jews!


I mean, who assumed "you can look at a terrorist and spot them"? I think we are on about a disturbance on an airplane leading to the pilot(s) deciding to abort taxi. I didn't read anything about the pilot thinking they were terrorists, or doing so merely by looking at them.

Here's a transcript of the plane's radio transmission:
"I've got two terrorists on board - I got a pretty good look at 'em when they boarded and they are either ninjas or know magic.
No, they haven't done anything yet, but I'm sure. I'm gonna taxi back. Prep special-ops."


You think that's what happened? Why wasn't delta-force waiting at the terminal? Why would a plane with terrorists on it go back to the terminal?
Click to expand...

Just to clear things...


What happened to the Imams was wrong. Period. They paid for their fare plus the security screening gave them the go.

There was no reason to take these individual off the plane
 
Gardener said:
So typical for you, you did not comprehend much of anything so you decided to say something unintelligent and derisive.

I haven't judged whether they are guilty or not. By your use of the term "victim", however, you HAVE prejudged, and all without any evidence. Until the case is investigated, we do not know whether it was their behavior that drew the response of the captain or their looks. If it was just their looks, then they are innocent, but the article does not mention what the pilot might have seen by way of behavior.
Click to expand...

Until there is evidence of some sort of wrongdoing on their part, they are the victim.

I never claimed you had judged them. This is a straw man and dishonest on your part. I said you tried to create some doubt by bringing up actions of others entirely unrelated to this based on no evidence and that your comments where lacking in class. Honesty in debate is good.
 
MaggieD said:
No, they should respect the feelings of those Americans who are nervous just that they're flying -- and more nervous when they see two Muslims board a plane in full regalia at this particular time. And I'm betting they're helluva lot smarter than you are -- that they understood what happened and hold no malice. They haven't yet gotten into the American Mindset of "Who Can I Sue??"
Click to expand...

And as your comment show, you again want people to change due to other people's emotional reactions. This is America, a country built on concepts of rights. Stop trying to take away people's rights because other people react irrationally.

Inherently vile? Hyperbole much? Tolerance runs both ways, yes? Or maybe not on Redress's road...
Click to expand...

Wait. Who's rights where potentially infringed here? Is there an inherent right to remove people from a plane because they make mindless people nervous?

Edit: No Fly Zone for Two Muslim Leaders | Gather

After seeing their picture, I can't agree with the pilot. The second screening should have been enough, if even necessary. I doubt the pilot will be fired -- I believe work rules let him put anyone off the plane. Hope they got a free flight and a voucher. It'd be interesting to know if the passengers were concerned -- or if the concern was all that of the captain and/or crew. We live in straaaaange times...

private invesigations: Two imams removed from flight to North Carolina after pilot refused to fly with them on board
Click to expand...

And this is very true, and I would add sad times. Irrational fear of others based on a lack of evidence is just sad.
 
Redress said:
Until there is evidence of some sort of wrongdoing on their part, they are the victim.

I never claimed you had judged them. This is a straw man and dishonest on your part. I said you tried to create some doubt by bringing up actions of others entirely unrelated to this based on no evidence and that your comments where lacking in class. Honesty in debate is good.
Click to expand...

Or maybe, just maybe, Gardener was bringing up another similar incident for comparison's sake. I didn't see where he claimed those were the same imams involved here. Good to know that claiming strawmen and dishonesty is just SOP for you when dealing with anyone who happens to hold a different opinion than you.
 
Last edited:
MaggieD said:
No, they should respect the feelings of those Americans who are nervous just that they're flying -- and more nervous when they see two Muslims board a plane in full regalia at this particular time.
Click to expand...

Respect works both ways. The people should have respected the Muslims and their religious garb as well.

How were the Muslims disrespecting anyone by wearing THEIR religious garb? Or is freedom of religion just for Christians?
 
TheNextEra said:
Respect works both ways. The people should have respected the Muslims and their religious garb as well.

How were the Muslims disrespecting anyone by wearing THEIR religious garb? Or is freedom of religion just for Christians?
Click to expand...

Now this is a straw man argument. Doubt anyone will have any problem with it, so long as it comes from the left side of the aisle.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom