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Report: Nearly Half Of Detroiters Can’t Read

Gill said:
Yeah Boo, you're right. I did make an assumption, the assumption that a TEACHer's job is to TEACH. Wow, I guess that was a crazy idea now that I think about it. Based on your and other libby's posts, you think a teacher's job is to babysit, collect free healthcare, count the days down to their pension kicks in, and protest when told to by their union bosses.

One question: How do you excuse the six or more teachers that passed these people on to the next grade knowing they couldn't even read. If they can't read a job application, they sure as hell couldn't read a history or geography book. Yet each teacher passed the problem off to the next one, who then passed them on to the next one, ad nauseum.

I never said that teachers were the major problem with these kid's life, but they sure as hell are the major reason they can't even read.
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You seem to have this weird notion that teachers are allowed to actually teach and that they are in charge of deciding who gets to move onto the next grade and who is held back. That's completely untrue and it shows that you don't have any clue how things work in our education system.
 
theplaydrive said:
Probably because there are public schools with unionized teachers who do just fine. How about... we deal with the actual problems?
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Schools did much better before teachers were unionized... and it's really no surprise.

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Councilman said:
Is there an ethnic component to this story?

It has been reported that the 8th graders of my generation was were equal to college graduates with an Associates degree today. I wish I knew that a long time ago I could have got my Masters degree two years sooner.

The Welfare system is geared to break up families as a way to keep minorities down. Look at the history and pay attention as you do and it will come to you.
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I wish I had still had a copy of a test for 8th graders from some farm town in the Midwest about 100-years ago. It illustrates how pathetic schools are today. And these kids were often sharing a school room with kids from other grades, and when they said they had a 3-holer out back, it wasn't a pitch-and-putt golf course.

Way too much money is wasted, teachers and students are coddled, and the federal government should get its ass out of education. If some district wants to teach their kids Ebonics, and the parents think it's wise... well... better to have one or two localities totally ****ed up than the entire nation.

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zimmer said:
Schools did much better before teachers were unionized... and it's really no surprise.

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I would love to see proof of this. Largely I hear a lot of claims, but little support for them.
 
Boo Radley said:
I would love to see proof of this. Largely I hear a lot of claims, but little support for them.
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How about using the stats that show the U.S. versus other countries regarding math and science scores?
 
washunut said:
How about using the stats that show the U.S. versus other countries regarding math and science scores?
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Which would prove what? What we're talking about is the cause, not the effect. I suggest our problems are larger than teachers and unions. More systemic. Some piss around the fringe, wasting time and effort on things that will make little to no real difference, while ignoring the larger problems.
 
Boo Radley said:
Which would prove what? What we're talking about is the cause, not the effect. I suggest our problems are larger than teachers and unions. More systemic. Some piss around the fringe, wasting time and effort on things that will make little to no real difference, while ignoring the larger problems.
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Then why not let us know what these bigger problems are.

BTW- Do you really believe there is ANY one answer to a problem in a country of 300+ million. So your answer is a bit of a strawman. The question is less is this THE problem or ONE of the problems.

Try to be a bit less absolutist.
 
washunut said:
Then why not let us know what these bigger problems are.

BTW- Do you really believe there is ANY one answer to a problem in a country of 300+ million. So your answer is a bit of a strawman. The question is less is this THE problem or ONE of the problems.

Try to be a bit less absolutist.
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I have many times. Societially we don't believe in education. Students spend most their time trying not to learn, to get out of school. Parents are more concerned with grades than learning overall. Many are uninvolved. Too many. Too many politiicans govern what is doen, like NCLB removeing decisions from those who best know how to tackle problems. Students are required to go to school, and schools are largely required to to house them when not doing so would be better.

An no, I've watched teachers take the brunt for a long, long time. teachers and unions, and unions really have little effect on teaching and learning at all. Most teachers are competent. As in any profession, a small percentage are superior. And small percentage is inferior. But most are well within competent standards. Attacking a major problem by looking at only one element of the problem is almost always fruitless.
 
zimmer said:
The Report
http://cbsdetroit.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/basicskillsreport_final.pdf

I'll leave the commentary to others, then again... my bet is it's because the teachers aren't paid enough for their fabulous performance.

It can't get any worse, so why not try something different, radical... like vouchers and ridding the city of unionized teachers?

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Your statement doesn't make sense. If they have fabulous performance, why does it matter what they are paid?

Wouldn't fabulous performance mean they are teaching and the kids are learning?
 
Boo Radley said:
Some piss around the fringe, wasting time and effort on things that will make little to no real difference, while ignoring the larger problems.
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Teachers agree: Bad teachers with tenure too tough to fire - USATODAY.com

More than half of teachers believe it's too difficult to weed out ineffective teachers who have tenure, and nearly half say they personally know such a teacher, according to a survey released Tuesday evening by the Education Sector, a non-partisan think tank.

Most teachers think the evaluation process for new teachers should be strengthened, so that weak teachers don't become entrenched. About 70% of teachers in the Education Sector survey said receiving tenure was just a formality that has little to do with teacher quality. Only a quarter said their own most recent evaluation was "useful and effective."

Teachers are generally observed in class one or two times a year by busy administrators. In many districts, tenured teachers aren't observed annually. Even when they occur, teachers say their evaluations are rarely rigorous.

A study of Chicago public schools last year found that more than 90% of teachers received one of the top two possible evaluation ratings — superior or excellent. Hardly any received the bottom two ratings — satisfactory or unsatisfactory.

Principals said they thought it was pointless to give critical judgments of tenured teachers. They also said they didn't want to deal with the grievance process that often accompanies poor evaluations, according to the report by the New Teacher Project, a non-profit focused on teacher quality.
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deal with problems, anyone?
 
The Prof said:
Teachers agree: Bad teachers with tenure too tough to fire - USATODAY.com



deal with problems, anyone?
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nailed it
Principals said they thought it was pointless to give critical judgments of tenured teachers. They also said they didn't want to deal with the grievance process that often accompanies poor evaluations, according to the report by the New Teacher Project, a non-profit focused on teacher quality.
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this what many of us keep mentioning
management is not doing its job
they are allowing inferior teachers to remain in the class rooms only because they refuse to do their job - managing staff

it is not teachers
it is not unions
creating the problem of ineffective teachers being allowed to remain to inadequately teach class after class, year after year
school management needs to be made to do its job
 
Boo Radley said:
I have many times. Societially we don't believe in education. Students spend most their time trying not to learn, to get out of school. Parents are more concerned with grades than learning overall. Many are uninvolved. Too many. Too many politiicans govern what is doen, like NCLB removeing decisions from those who best know how to tackle problems. Students are required to go to school, and schools are largely required to to house them when not doing so would be better.

An no, I've watched teachers take the brunt for a long, long time. teachers and unions, and unions really have little effect on teaching and learning at all. Most teachers are competent. As in any profession, a small percentage are superior. And small percentage is inferior. But most are well within competent standards. Attacking a major problem by looking at only one element of the problem is almost always fruitless.
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My experience with schools my son has gone to is materially different than what you reference above. Sure there are kids who have the wrong or no motivation regarding school. These seem to be the minority rather than the rule. Teachers also seem to have done a good job.

The high school my son went to is filled with teachers who have degrees from great universities. They are also highly motivated, as the kids who go there are usually because they want to learn.

While I agree that teachers are not the main problem, a union for teachers seems almost counter-intuitive. Just as each student should strive to be the best they can be or not learn what they need to, teachers should be judged on their talents.
 
Mason66 said:
Your statement doesn't make sense. If they have fabulous performance, why does it matter what they are paid?

Wouldn't fabulous performance mean they are teaching and the kids are learning?
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Mason... it dun flewed write ohver yer hed. Think about the statement for a minute... the answer is at the bottom of the post.
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sarcasm. derision. mocking.
you weren't serious were you?
 
washunut said:
My experience with schools my son has gone to is materially different than what you reference above. Sure there are kids who have the wrong or no motivation regarding school. These seem to be the minority rather than the rule. Teachers also seem to have done a good job.

The high school my son went to is filled with teachers who have degrees from great universities. They are also highly motivated, as the kids who go there are usually because they want to learn.

While I agree that teachers are not the main problem, a union for teachers seems almost counter-intuitive. Just as each student should strive to be the best they can be or not learn what they need to, teachers should be judged on their talents.
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And rewarded or not according to them.

We often hear the comparison to athletes... why teachers make so little by comparison. It's supply and demand, but not all jocks are paid equally either, and scholarships aren't handed out equally either. Performers usually are better compensated, and it should be so with teachers. The best teachers should earn a lot more. The duds should find other work.

I will try to find a speech Jack Welch gave about the subject... or some comments. He worked with schools in NY (I think it was NY and not MA), and was disgusted to his core... teachers unions were the root of all evil, and it's understandable.

How does this level of illiteracy, pure, unadulterated failure exist in the 21st century in a major American city? If it's not government and the unions... what is it? Lack of government? Not enough power for unions and pay for teachers?

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Anyone who is smart leaves Detroit. So this makes sense.

Paying teachers better would probably increase the quality of teachers in Detroit. But Detroit probably can't afford that since its so poor. Additionally, having better teachers wouldn't solve the problem because all the smart kids would still leave Detroit.

What the city needs is investors in general. It needs a bunch of east/west coasters to come in and make the area nice, create jobs, and pay taxes so the city can afford to start fixing itself and providing for its residents.

But this won't happen any time soon. All those people seem to be going to Virginia, South Carolina, Tennessee, and the southwest at the moment.
 
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Krhazy said:
Anyone who is smart leaves Detroit. So this makes sense.

Paying teachers better would probably increase the quality of teachers in Detroit. But Detroit probably can't afford that since its so poor. Additionally, having better teachers wouldn't solve the problem because all the smart kids would still leave Detroit.

What the city needs is investors in general. It needs a bunch of east/west coasters to come in and make the area nice, create jobs, and pay taxes so the city can afford to start fixing itself and providing for its residents.

But this won't happen any time soon. All those people seem to be going to Virginia, South Carolina, Tennessee, and the southwest at the moment.
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I completely agree. Detroit is a failed city, getting good teachers, getting rid of Unions, etc won't fix Detroit education system, not when the rest of the city is broken.
 
xpiher said:
I completely agree. Detroit is a failed city, getting good teachers, getting rid of Unions, etc won't fix Detroit education system, not when the rest of the city is broken.
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when many of the students come from broken homes where making good grades is hindered by parental lack of support, drug abuse, violence and being called "uncle tom" if you study hard, much more is needed
 
zimmer said:
How does this level of illiteracy, pure, unadulterated failure exist in the 21st century in a major American city? If it's not government and the unions... what is it? Lack of government? Not enough power for unions and pay for teachers?

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Those questions have been answered over and over on this very thread. Just go back and read through it.
 
VanceMack said:
Nah...why...do you keep your shrine to the king of the morons you worship daily in your living room or do you have a special room? Good thing those personal comments are all in fun, right?

If you followed my plan those that actually stayed in school would survive and thrive. Kids wouldnt have to pass through metal detectors and the quality of their education wouldnt be reduced to the lowest common denominator. And you are at LEAST an apprentice 3rd level moron if you dont recognize that with the poluted product we today call 'schools' we dont already have all those problems you cited and more. You are a fan of evolution...right? Stop providing opportunites for people to fail. Stop excusing it. Try taking a stand and demanding a better quality product.
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As I stated before there are many outside influences that effect the way children learn that the education system can not stop no matter how strong or weak it is. This isn't an excuse this is just life. Being a new father, my child is healthier and developed more than most 4 month old children by this time, including her motor skills and such. This just isn't because of mine and her mothers constant attention it is also due to many of the colorful, educational toys that help her with her hand eye coordination, balance, and so on. This is just a simple example but many parents themselves do not have the money to afford the kinds of things we are able to afford for my daughter.

So then you have Detroit. I'm sure like Cincinnati's work force, much of the workers there at GM or Ford in Detroit commute from outside neighborhoods out of the school district. So you are left with poorer people whos taxes aren't enough to provide the educational tools needed in the school. They themselves might be working to much, not be around enough, or just not have the money or as much time as they would hope to help their children develop.

Me personally I believe our entire educational system needs an overhaul, I don't think that it's broken but much of what is taught is outdated and needs to be updated to compete with countries such as China and India. This sentiment has been reflected by politicans from both sides.
 
TurtleDude said:
when many of the students come from broken homes where making good grades is hindered by parental lack of support, drug abuse, violence and being called "uncle tom" if you study hard, much more is needed
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Not to mention gang activity. I know it may seem simple to most of us, but remember how there were "cool kids" that everyone wanted to be friends with in school? Well cool kids in many of these cities are actually the gangs. They are drawn to these people for some reason and it is a terrible problem that constantly crops up. I don't know how Detroit handles it (perhaps they should invest into Robocop?) but I know places like Chicago, New York City, and Cincinnati have been able to counter it quite a bit the past ten years and I've only seen studies for NYC so far showing that it has had a net positive effect for the city all around including the schools.

About the Uncle Tom part, I don't call it Uncle Tom I use the less racially offensive "Bill Cosby Black". I actually have quite a few friends that are "Bill Cosby Black", and they all do pretty good in life some of them do much, much better than me (One works for RIM actually) and they all have a few things in common: incredibly strict parents, structure, upper middle-class family, and working hard. All of them used the public school systems, one actually was in school in southern California so saying public schools is the total problem is absurd. They all are funny in that they don't much care for rap music, and they like things that aren't normally associated with blacks. They also deal with racism all the time and are constantly challenged because of their race.
 
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I know it may seem simple to most of us, but remember how there were "cool kids" that everyone wanted to be friends with in school? Well cool kids in many of these cities are actually the gangs. They are drawn to these people for some reason and it is a terrible problem that constantly crops up.
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Bold and underline mine.


If everyone wants to be your friend, you're a "rich" kid, not a "cool" kid.

Haters gonna hate.
 
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ecofarm said:
Bold and underline mine.


If everyone wants to be your friend, you're a "rich" kid, not a "cool" kid.

Haters gonna hate.
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And if you're born in the slum, who are the rich kids? Are they sons of doctors, lawyers, successful businesspeople? No, they are the ones associated in one way or another with drugs. The message is clear: If you want to have a nice ride, all the b*** you want, you have to be the toughest and meanest drug runner in town. Why go to school? how is that relevant to your hopes and dreams?

It's a somewhat different culture than what is found in the affluent suburbs.
 
i'm a veteran california public school teacher and i can tell you the bedrock---the reason principals so rarely move against any of our few incompetent, lazy, jaded, unprofessionally mean, etc, colleagues is cuzza:

Principals said they thought it was pointless to give critical judgments of tenured teachers. They also said they didn't want to deal with the grievance process that often accompanies poor evaluations, according to the report by the New Teacher Project, a non-profit focused on teacher quality.
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(usa today above)

in new york it costs a quarter mil to remove a bad teacher:

Because tenure laws are different in every state, comparisons on the time and expense involved in disciplining or firing teachers are difficult. In New York state, the process can take six to 18 months and can run into hundreds of thousands of dollars, including the teachers' pay and fees for lawyers, stenographers and arbitrators.

In New York City, the cost to fire one incompetent tenured teacher is about $250,000, said Education Department spokeswoman Melody Meyer. She said that of 55,000 teachers on staff, 10 were fired last year.
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Firing tenured teachers isn't just difficult, it costs you - USATODAY.com

usa today doesn't mention all the stages a district must go thru BEFORE initiating dismissal proceedings

if a principal gives a teacher any kind of negative evalutation, the administration has committed itself to a great deal of extra work

the union generally fights it every foot

in my area everyone always says it costs the district a million dollars to get rid of one of us

the one exception that'll getcha is if you touch a kid, in anger or its opposite

smart veteran teachers avoid being alone in a class with a kid with the door closed

also, never turn your back on the action, always find a wall for your back, savvy vets converse side by side, they do not face each other

anyway, blaming is for bitches, men and women of quality and character are concerned with solutions

tenure reform is drastically needed if anyone is really interested in improving public education, it doesn't have to be partisan
 
The Prof said:
tenure reform is drastically needed if anyone is really interested in improving public education, it doesn't have to be partisan
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Key phrase is REFORM, not removal which is what many on the right want.
 
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