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Thread: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

  1. #191
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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you think that the government interfering in the housing market and then delaying a recovery through massive expansion funded by the withdrawal of liquidity from the private market is capitalism?

    Corporatism, man, it's Corporatism.
    I think your version of reality is fiction.

    The housing bubble was created Capitalism in it's purest form. Capitalists got rich, actually super rich, loaning money. That's what capitalism is all about. This time it was different only in their ability to create the conditions which made their money-lending profitable. They bought politicians who controlled regulation of the money market. Once the regulations were gone, capitalists were free to do whatever they wanted. Capitalists made borrowing so easy, almost anyone who had a job could have as much money as he wanted to buy a house with no questions asked. As long as prices were increasing, capitalists were generating huge profits.
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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Ryan's plan doesn't balance the budget for several more years, this is true. It does reduce the deficit off of the current baseline. the President's plan doesn't balance the budget at all, and it increases the deficit off of the current baseline.
    That's irrelevant. Republicans are raising public concern about the dangers of the deficit to the economy in the near future. Whatever fix they have is so far in the future it can't possibly be taken seriously. It's virtually fiction.
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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    Do you realize consumer spending is responsible for around 67% of GDP? What is a better way to support prosperity than promoting consumerism?
    We don't have to promote consumerism for essential needs, that money will be spent and get into circulation.
    Whether personal spending or govt spending, spending for things we don't need and using credit to do so is the problem.
    A slow growing economy really is better in the long run.
    Our grandchildren will not thank us for saddling them with OUR debt...
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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Whether personal spending or govt spending, spending for things we don't need and using credit to do so is the problem.
    What problem, exactly, is that?

    I can see a problem of personal finance. No individual can borrow increasing amounts indefinitely. Governments aren't like that, though. They can borrow as much as they want and raise taxes to pay the debt. If they've spent wisely, GDP will have grown enough to support higher taxes. It's a win-win.
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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    What problem, exactly, is that?

    I can see a problem of personal finance. No individual can borrow increasing amounts indefinitely. Governments aren't like that, though. They can borrow as much as they want and raise taxes to pay the debt. If they've spent wisely, GDP will have grown enough to support higher taxes. It's a win-win.
    When you or I do it, and our personal economy goes sour, we can file bankruptcy and our creditors take the hit. They actually PLAN for a certain percentage of their accounts going bankrupt.
    When a government does it, different story. OUR Govt doesn't seem to be able to PLAN for what has been shown to happen time and time again....
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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    it suddenly occurs to me. can you imagine what would happen if we started paying government employees extra for finding ways to save money?
    Such a program already exists in the DoD - it's called the IDEA program, if I recall correctly.

    Money awards cap at 1K and your idea has to be used by leadership, so suggestions like "These contractors waste money just fire them already and hire cheaper govt employees" might save money but they won't happen.

    Corruption in the DoD is at the level of leadership, not the lower levels of the bureaucracy. Sometimes that's 'middle management', but generally it's at the level of Congress dealing with high-ranking officers. I can't speak for other major federal bureaucracies.

    And yet as wasteful as the system is, compared to most private firms, it's not substantially worse in comparison. The government pulls ahead substantially on executive salary alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    and how much of the stimulus ramp up in government spending was in wage hikes that otherwise wouldn't have been?
    Since a good deal of it was corporate tax cuts, there's quite a bit of CEO salary there.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    when we get to the 2020's, Medicare, Medicaid, and SS will suck up every single tax dollar.
    I don't believe you. Citation or you're making things up. And please make it a better 'citation' than that obviously wrong military spending by GDP chart.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that's nice. what you didn't do was demonstrate any point in US history where we have even come close to generating 24% of our GDP in tax revenues - even under tax rates far higher than they are today.
    Your point is a non-sequitur and not necessary. We aren't even close to 20% of our GDP right now. It's clear our tax rates are exceedingly low. But if I had to demonstrate that, I'd point out all the tax evasion and loopholes.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    well, when you make it worth millions or billions to spend hundreds of thousands reducing your tax bill - then yeah.
    A problem solvable by making it no longer possible to buy laws through campaign contributions and lobbying. Other wealthy nations manage it, why can't we?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the cost of compliance with our tax code is around $431 Billion due to our idiotic decision to have a regime of high rates with high exemptions. squeeze out those hundreds of billions into productive uses by lowering both rates and exemptions to achieve revenue neutrality, and you will see some impressive growth. that's why the Presidents' Bi-Partisan debt reduction commission proposed exactly that.
    Indeed - high rates with no exemptions would be much more efficient, and would actually address our budget problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. you are correct that military spending has risen over the past 10 years.
    2. this in no way alters the fact that we are below our historical average.
    Since military spending growth has vastly outpaced GDP growth (I Demand Answers From the Aggregate Demanders ), your previous chart where Military spending as a percentage of GDP doesn't skyrocket is false. It is bad data.

    Your charts are demonstrably wrong. Get a better source.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you think that the government interfering in the housing market and then delaying a recovery through massive expansion funded by the withdrawal of liquidity from the private market is capitalism?
    In a free market, the law is a commodity.

    Capitalism is corporatism. An unrestrained market is a corrupt market.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Check out the first debate with McCain, and I am trying to find an interview where he is asked what he would cut... Obama couldn't come up with anything.
    He since tried to cut wasteful DoD spending. Republicans resisted him, but I think he still managed to drop the ABL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    I can see a problem of personal finance. No individual can borrow increasing amounts indefinitely. Governments aren't like that, though. They can borrow as much as they want and raise taxes to pay the debt. If they've spent wisely, GDP will have grown enough to support higher taxes. It's a win-win.
    Strictly speaking, so can people, if the debt in each case constitutes wise decisions and the individual doesn't get fired or the like. In practice, nobody who isn't already rich can count on a steady job, so credit is pretty much a bad idea for everything that isn't college tuition (in which case it's only probably a bad idea).

    But that's irrelevant because that's not what the US government is doing with most of its' spending. Most of the government's budget is measured spending for specific results, which is why most spending is so hard to cut - most federal dollars can be tied directly to someone who actually does need it.

    That's also what makes the DoD by far the easiest place to cut, in theory - because the money's not going to people, but tax-fat contracting companies. In practice, tax-fat contracting companies have more voice in our government than seniors at the verge of poverty kept out only by Social Security.

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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    march 1, gao finds a half trillion dollars lost, vanished

    "most of it in fiscal 2009 and 2010 and moving forward"

    GAO Finds Massive Waste, Duplication - FoxBusiness.com

    no more money for managers so miserable

    especially in times like these

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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    You should check the average tax rates for OECD countries. The US is near the bottom and some countries in Western Europe are above 30%. If they can do it, we can too.
    You assume we want high taxes.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    I think your version of reality is fiction.

    The housing bubble was created Capitalism in it's purest form. Capitalists got rich, actually super rich, loaning money. That's what capitalism is all about. This time it was different only in their ability to create the conditions which made their money-lending profitable. They bought politicians who controlled regulation of the money market. Once the regulations were gone, capitalists were free to do whatever they wanted. Capitalists made borrowing so easy, almost anyone who had a job could have as much money as he wanted to buy a house with no questions asked. As long as prices were increasing, capitalists were generating huge profits.
    Those Capitalists must have been govt politicians who passed laws to make it easier to get a loan.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by pzycho View Post
    Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Well, isn't this interesting. All you ultra-liberals out there that want to raise taxes and hurt the economic recovery, take careful note. This should help make the debt ceiling debate vigorous.

    Yeah, we like to say it's wasteful spending because then it makes it seem like we're not at fault. But if you start looking at the main areas which will most affect our spending, no one wants to cut from there. So in the end, our debt is our fault and we have to come to a conclusions. Either we start restructuring things like funding for military, medicare, social security, etc. or we pay our tab. That's the choice. And it's up to us.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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