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Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

There's plenty of waste in the government - that is to say, government spending that doesn't actually accomplish what it's supposed to be doing.

Most of it's in defense, as medicare and SS have fairly strong anti-waste programs already.

All social spending is a waste because we still have poverty. :)

Medicare and SS are also not (yet) contributing to our massive national debt, so that largest source of spending, which is presently almost completely paid for by payroll taxes and is cutting into pretty much the only surplus the US government has ever meaningfully sustained, is in fact not the cause of our debt.

Social Security spends more than it takes in. Same for Medicare/Medicaid.

The fact is that decades ago, before taxes for the wealthy were cut massively and defense spending was also raised massively, our government could pay for itself just fine. The variables that have changed massively since are taxation on the wealthy and defense spending, and there's no reason to believe we can't fix the problem by fixing those two points.

Revenue as a percentage of GDP has stayed constant. Those tax breaks did not change much because there were a lot of tax deductions before. Either way, changing the tax rate had very little effect on government revenues.

Now, in order to avoid a later catastrophe in Medicare/SS that is not due to lower birth rates but is in fact due to an old and ongoing miscalculation between individual money in and money out, we should also increase the payroll tax. If I recall correctly, increasing the SS payroll cap should fix the program's problems. I'm not sure what increase Medicare would require, though.

Just get rid of the programs. More taxes will not bring in more money as Hauser's Law has shown.
 
There's plenty of waste in the government - that is to say, government spending that doesn't actually accomplish what it's supposed to be doing.

Most of it's in defense, as medicare and SS have fairly strong anti-waste programs already.


actually medicare waste is the largest single fraud ticket in the Federal Budget.

Medicare and SS are also not (yet) contributing to our massive national debt, so that largest source of spending, which is presently almost completely paid for by payroll taxes and is cutting into pretty much the only surplus the US government has ever meaningfully sustained, is in fact not the cause of our debt.

The fact is that decades ago, before taxes for the wealthy were cut massively and defense spending was also raised massively, our government could pay for itself just fine. The variables that have changed massively since are taxation on the wealthy and defense spending, and there's no reason to believe we can't fix the problem by fixing those two points.

actually there is plenty of reason to believe that we aren't going to fix the problems by raising taxes and reducing defense spending. the first (and most obvious) reason is that the unfunded liabilities for Social Security and Medicare are larger than GDP..... of the world. they are larger than the GDP of the world by a lot. We would need about 80-ish TRILLION dollars extra in order to cover them. We have negative $14 Trillion. You aren't going to cover that gap from repealing the bush tax cuts for the rich and cutting out some carrier groups. The second is that raising taxes doesn't actually seem to raise that much revenue, but it does depress growth, which can have a long-term negative effect on revenue off the baseline.
 
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the first (and most obvious) reason is that the unfunded liabilities for Social Security and Medicare are larger than GDP..... of the world.

Now, you know they like to play that shell game where payroll taxes have the entitlements covered - perhaps raise the FICA cap and increase the retirement benefit age a touch), and the low income taxes for the wealthy and high defense spending is what blows our budget. This completely ignores the historical growth in entitlements as a percentage of GDP (1% in 1950, 14% in 2011) and the future growth predictions you reference with unfunded liabilities exceeding $80 TRILLION over the next 75 years (perfectly legitimate business projection done by the SSA as their long-term projection). Entitlements are over 60% of our federal budget and is squeezing deficits, defense spending (which has steadily dropped by 5% since the early post-WWII era), and all other functions of the government.

The second is that raising taxes doesn't actually seem to raise that much revenue, but it does depress growth, which can have a long-term negative effect on revenue off the baseline.

Especially during a time when the revenues are depressed due to high unemployment and negative average income per capita.

We have a spending problem, not a revenue problem. Our spending problem is we spend twice as much a year as we can afford. Our spending problem is that the federal government represents 25% of GDP, with only 8% of employment.

Surely we can agree that a corporatist-statist socioeconomic political system is bad for the philosophical foundations of our country: protecting individual freedoms.
 
And you are in denial. Spending is a problem, but so is the lack of revenue.

Revenue in 2010 is about the same as it was in 2004, but spending is almost a trillion dollars more.
 
We can't increase taxes and shouldn't increase taxes to accommodate for wasteful spending. The problem is the spending, not the revenue.
 
And you are in denial. Spending is a problem, but so is the lack of revenue.

I'm sorry, was your opinion regarding the US federal budget welcome? I didn't think so. Why don't you stick to worrying about the Bellota groves, the Iberico boars, and the pending socialist government default in Spain.
 
If so many people run up debt and carry credit card balances month to month, did we expect our national government to act any different.
 
If so many people run up debt and carry credit card balances month to month, did we expect our national government to act any different.

The difference is that the people running up credit card balances can't decide to raise their credit limit every few months like Congress does.
 
The difference is that the people running up credit card balances can't decide to raise their credit limit every few months like Congress does.

Thats the banks job that issued the credit card. LOL
 
Revenue in 2010 is about the same as it was in 2004, but spending is almost a trillion dollars more.

Two issues with this.

First off, you admit that revenue has not kept up with spending, hence that is a major issue that any 1st year economics student would know. And that was exactly the complaints in the last decade over the Bush economic plan.. starting 2 wars and giving massive tax cuts to the wealthy.. it is economics 101.. you would get a freaking F for doing that in a paper.

Secondly, even in 2004, the revenue was not enough to meet the spending... there was by those standard then, record deficits. So already then you had a problem.. hell you had a problem under Reagan as well, who grew your debt almost threefold.

Like it or not the last 30 years of American conservative economic theory has been an utter failure. When people on the left claimed (for partisan reasons of course) that there was a deficit, then people like Cheney and other "intellectuals" on the right said it did not matter.. jobs and economic growth mattered.... then guess what.. the left were 100% right! Now that the very same people on the right are in the opposition then suddenly the deficits matter... hypocrites.... and of course the people on the left are silent because they are in power.. also hypocrites.

Like it or not, you will need to increase revenue and cut spending.. lets take it to primary school level for the US right (some).. seems to be a standard on Fox News these days.

If you have outlays of 100 dollars a month but only earn 60 dollars, the you either have to cut 40 dollars of your outlays or increase your income. Now if your rent/food/utilities are alone 70 dollars (aka stuff that is damn hard to cut), then cutting the total 40 dollars is unrealistic.. unless you want to have no home or no food or no heat/water. So your only alternative is to get more income to cover what is left.... a second job for example..

Hope that clears it up...
 
Pete, the deficit under Bush and Cheney is nothing compared to Obama's. It wasn't conservative economic policies to bail out businesses under Bush or Obama. Bush ran a deficit because of war spending. Obama is running an astronomically larger deficit due to stimulus spending, bail outs, and other unneeded spending. The liberal economists believe we can spend our way out of the recession and pay to keep unemployment down. This hasn't worked and has only contributed to a very large debt that is now encroaching upon the legal debt ceiling. Liberal economic policies have failed and damaged us from the Bush and Obama administrations. The answer is to dramatically lower spending, lower taxes, and move away from being oil dependent on the Middle East. Keep more money circulating in the economy and in the hands of the people and not in government coffers that will be wasted and unproductive.
 
The problem with polls like this is they don't ask the obvious follow up:

Define 'Wasteful Government Spending":

**Farm Subsidies
**Energy Subsidies
**Bank Bail Outs
**AIG Bail Out
**Auto Bail Out
**Tax Breaks to Business
**Afganistan War
**Iraq War
**Infrastructure
**Medicare
**Medicaid
**Social Security
**Veterans Programs
**Other Misc Entitlements
**Science and Tech Grants
**Education Grants
**Govt Employee Health-Care
**Govt Employee Travel
**Govt Employee Salary

I've read some Congressmen sleep in their office because the cost of renting an apartment in DC is too high. Why not build a dorm and make it mandatory for all Senators and Congressmen to live there? Cut their salaries, cut their travel, cut their staff... Make it mostly volunteer.

Prohibit non-infrastructure pet projects.

Form a bi-partisan citizens board to approve all grants to research.

Social Security / Medicare - allow people to Opt out. But make some earnings requirements.

We could abolish Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid with a Public Option - Single Payer System.
 
All social spending is a waste because we still have poverty. :)
Medicare and SS are aimed at alleviating poverty among the elderly, not eliminating it. If we wanted to eliminate poverty, we'd need to get all Finland up in here.

Social Security spends more than it takes in. Same for Medicare/Medicaid.
And it has been for some years. But before that, for decades, SS/Medicare took in more than they spent to build up a large surplus that is still being cut into. SS/Medicare are in deficit but they do not add to the national debt because the programs still run a surplus and will continue to do so for a couple decades.

Revenue as a percentage of GDP has stayed constant.
Cite or it didn't happen.

Those tax breaks did not change much because there were a lot of tax deductions before.
Non sequitur. "There were already ways to evade taxes, and therefore reducing tax rates didn't actually reduce tax rates!" is a stupid argument, as reducing the tax rates did not in fact get rid of the tax loopholes - and now the wealthy both exploit loopholes and pay low tax rates in order to, effectively, pay lower rates than many of us non-rich.

Either way, changing the tax rate had very little effect on government revenues.
Seeing the massive impact on government revenues the comparatively small Bush tax cuts have had, I don't believe you for a second.

Just get rid of the programs. More taxes will not bring in more money as Hauser's Law has shown.
Current taxation levels are well below the appx. 20% of GDP mark. We could raise taxes by 33% across the board (or, alternately, raise it on the wealthy to an appropriate level) and expect it to have an impact, even if we take Hauser's Law as fact, which is a generous assumption.
 
Pete, the deficit under Bush and Cheney is nothing compared to Obama's. It wasn't conservative economic policies to bail out businesses under Bush or Obama. Bush ran a deficit because of war spending. Obama is running an astronomically larger deficit due to stimulus spending, bail outs, and other unneeded spending. The liberal economists believe we can spend our way out of the recession and pay to keep unemployment down. This hasn't worked and has only contributed to a very large debt that is now encroaching upon the legal debt ceiling. Liberal economic policies have failed and damaged us from the Bush and Obama administrations. The answer is to dramatically lower spending, lower taxes, and move away from being oil dependent on the Middle East. Keep more money circulating in the economy and in the hands of the people and not in government coffers that will be wasted and unproductive.


nope.....we cannot get ourselves out without raises taxes. wrong, wrong and wrong.
 
The problem with polls like this is they don't ask the obvious follow up:

Define 'Wasteful Government Spending":

**Farm Subsidies
**Energy Subsidies
**Bank Bail Outs
**AIG Bail Out
**Auto Bail Out
**Tax Breaks to Business
**Afganistan War
**Iraq War
**Infrastructure
**Medicare
**Medicaid
**Social Security
**Veterans Programs
**Other Misc Entitlements
**Science and Tech Grants
**Education Grants
**Govt Employee Health-Care
**Govt Employee Travel
**Govt Employee Salary
**DoD Obligations/Budget
**DoD Contracting

There'd be my personal analysis. The ones only partially bolded have, in my experience, a degree of waste that could be improved. The fully bolded ones are riddled with waste and corruption and need to be revamped or dropped entirely.

Added the two most prominent sources of government waste I know of - excessive operating budgets and contracting among the DoD.

Social Security is not replacable with single-payer health care. SPHC would probably save money compared to Medicare/Medicaid, but SS is meant to address general poverty among the elderly, not just medical bills.
 
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Two issues with this.

First off, you admit that revenue has not kept up with spending, hence that is a major issue that any 1st year economics student would know. And that was exactly the complaints in the last decade over the Bush economic plan.. starting 2 wars and giving massive tax cuts to the wealthy.. it is economics 101.. you would get a freaking F for doing that in a paper.

So, if I decide to go out and buy a Bentley, I didn't overspend, my revenues just didn't keep up with my spending habits .... right ??? :roll:

Secondly, even in 2004, the revenue was not enough to meet the spending... there was by those standard then, record deficits. So already then you had a problem.. hell you had a problem under Reagan as well, who grew your debt almost threefold.

Newsflash.... spending has been greater than revenues under every president in the past 50 years except for a short time in the 1990s when a Republican Congress got the budget under control.

Like it or not the last 30 years of American conservative economic theory has been an utter failure. When people on the left claimed (for partisan reasons of course) that there was a deficit, then people like Cheney and other "intellectuals" on the right said it did not matter.. jobs and economic growth mattered.... then guess what.. the left were 100% right! Now that the very same people on the right are in the opposition then suddenly the deficits matter... hypocrites.... and of course the people on the left are silent because they are in power.. also hypocrites.

Like it or not, you will need to increase revenue and cut spending.. lets take it to primary school level for the US right (some).. seems to be a standard on Fox News these days.

If you have outlays of 100 dollars a month but only earn 60 dollars, the you either have to cut 40 dollars of your outlays or increase your income. Now if your rent/food/utilities are alone 70 dollars (aka stuff that is damn hard to cut), then cutting the total 40 dollars is unrealistic.. unless you want to have no home or no food or no heat/water. So your only alternative is to get more income to cover what is left.... a second job for example..

Hope that clears it up...

No, you move to a cheaper place, eat less, and turn the lights and tv off.

Hope that clears it up............
 
The problem with the poll is that it isn't sufficiently detailed. What do Americans define as "wasteful spending?" If such details were known, is the spending Americans define as "wasteful" really contributing significantly to the long-term fiscal imbalances? If one goes to other polls (e.g., Poll shows Americans oppose entitlement cuts to deal with debt problem - The Washington Post) that get into a greater level of detail, one finds Americans generally opposed to cutting major entitlement programs. Yet, it is those programs, some of which are enormously popular, that are the main drivers of the nation's long-term imbalances. If there is to be the kind of sustained fiscal consolidation necessary to address those imbalances, Americans will need to understand what the main reasons for the imbalances are and, even more important, be willing to accept and support the sacrifices necessary to address those issues.

If the Washington Post poll is representative of national sentiment, I don't believe the majority of Americans are at the stage where fiscal consolidation is sustainable. It is insufficient for Americans to say "cut spending" and, afterward, when presented with detailed choices, to counter emphatically "don't touch this program!" As a result, today's leaders will have to make courageous decisions to begin the process at a time when public understanding and support are lacking. I hope they do so as part of the debt ceiling debate, but a "punt" cannot be ruled out. Ultimately, the nation's political leaders will need to educate and persuade the public to back such a path if fiscal consolidation is to be sustained. In the longer-run, if public support cannot be fostered, that effort could be undermined e.g., new leaders who abandon the effort could be elected. That path has been taken in numerous countries that faced emerging debt crises in the past e.g., in Latin America.

In sum, I am not impressed with that poll. It is easy for the public to advocate general unspecified spending cuts. After all, on account of the ambiguity, unspecified spending reductions entail no potential sacrifices or risks. When the public shows support for specific policy changes/spending reductions, that will be more important, as it will indicate an understanding of the problem and at least some willingness to bear the necessary sacrifices.
 
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In sum, I am not impressed with that poll. It is easy for the public to advocate general unspecified spending cuts. After all, on account of the ambiguity, unspecified spending reductions entail no potential sacrifices or risks. When the public shows support for specific policy changes/spending reductions, that will be more important, as it will indicate an understanding of the problem and at least some willingness to bear the necessary sacrifices.

And here I thought the ambiguity of the poll was a feature to foster good debate here on DP! ;-)
 
If one goes to other polls (e.g., Poll shows Americans oppose entitlement cuts to deal with debt problem - The Washington Post) that get into a greater level of detail, one finds Americans generally opposed to cutting major entitlement programs. Yet, it is those programs, some of which are enormously popular, that are the main drivers of the nation's long-term imbalances.

From the link:
The Post-ABC poll finds that 78 percent oppose cutting spending on Medicare as a way to chip away at the debt. On Medicaid — the government insurance program for the poor — 69 percent disapprove of cuts. There is also broad opposition to cuts in military spending to reduce the debt, but at somewhat lower levels (56 percent).

Nice! So we can still cut the DEA...
 
So, if I decide to go out and buy a Bentley, I didn't overspend, my revenues just didn't keep up with my spending habits .... right ??? :roll:

No... you went out and gave away money you did not have.. tax cuts, and 2 wars.. your logic is flawed, not to mention quite childish.

Newsflash.... spending has been greater than revenues under every president in the past 50 years except for a short time in the 1990s when a Republican Congress got the budget under control.

Actually that is only partly correct. There was also surpluses under Clinton. Point is, most deficits were relatively minor until Reagan and Bush Jr. The US debt only started to explode under Reagan and especially under Bush Jr.

No, you move to a cheaper place, eat less, and turn the lights and tv off.

Hope that clears it up............

So live on the street, starve and freeze to death is your solution to the problem?
 
That question wasn't asked, so I can't be sure how Americans might respond. Of course, even if the DEA were eliminated, that would save less than $3 billion per year.

Well, they should ask that question! I mean if entitlements and defense are off the table, that leaves less than 15% ($555 billion) of the federal budget left to cut...getting rid of the DEA would be a 1/2 % cut in the cuttable budget. It's a start! Going to have to cut lots of small programs, rather than a couple of big ones, it seems.
 
we cannot get ourselves out without raises taxes

fine, tell hurryup harry to write it up and MOVE it

it's been 700 days since the us senate itemized a budget

why?

in times like these

leadership, anyone?
 
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