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Thread: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

  1. #101
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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I'll accept your concession on that point now. Effective tax rates remained the same.
    Get an external source that actually shows up.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    You know what happened in 2009? Government spending as a percentage of GDP skyrocketed. Government doesn't tax itself, so of course revenue/GDP would fall.
    Since most federal reciepts are on payroll and income taxes, yes, the federal government does tax itself. But that was a clever try.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    What are you talking about?
    The content of the Wikipedia article. Since you apparently do not agree with the Heritage Foundation's frankly silly explanation of the reduction, it is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    And guess what causes the difference. Are those countries spending more as a percentage of GDP? Think that has an effect on the ratio? Either way, raising taxes to balance the budget is a horrible idea. We want growth. Higher taxes suck away capital for investment and decrease growth. There is no way around that fact.
    Are you arguing that countries that spend more then increase this ratio? Because that's:

    -The opposite of the argument you made earlier in your very same post. Admittedly, the argument is wrong, so I could believe this one.
    -However, if higher spending artificially inflates this metric, it means that, because we have had high spending for decades and extremely high spending of late so our tax by GDP metric would have been overinflated, the US government is recieving taxes at an absurdly low rate compared to what we should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    Fiscal Commission Co-Chairs Simpson And Bowles Release Eye-Popping Recommendations | TPMDC

    ALL FOUR hits to ss are in order if the entitlement is to SURVIVE for future generations
    Never said in the article; you are making things up.

    Please stop fabricating claims for your arguments.

    Also, please try to actually read sources so that you understand what you are talking about.

    TheProf, I get the distinct impression that you are completely uninterested in actually holding a discussion in good faith. Your arguments are disjointed and it doesn't look like you read either my citations, or even your own. You seem more interested in making silly, Fox-style talking points than making any meaningful discussion.



    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    yes, so long as you can plug in whatever multiplier you like, gosh, the model always works!
    Except there is a very real multiplier based on what percentage of the money is saved versus spent each time it goes through the cycle.

    20 bucks isn't going to get spent more than a few times before someone saves it - likely as an investment - and it stops moving through the economy in liquid form.

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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Or you could seek the truth. The link will give clarity to your errors, big time.

    Legal Schnauzer: Dissecting the Economic Debacles of the George W. Bush Administration
    Bottom line is that Sparrow and Horse does not create a strong economic base. Grow the middle class and everyone prospers. Not just the Top.

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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    bowles-simpson, link above:

    Social Security cuts:

    1. Index the retirement age to longevity -- i.e., increase the retirement age to qualify for Social Security -- to age 69 by 2075.

    2. Index Social Security yearly increases to a lower inflation rate, which will generally mean lower cost of living increases and less money per average recipient.

    3. "Increase progressivity of benefit formula" -- i.e., reduce benefits by 2050 for middle, and, especially, higher earners, relative to current benefits.

    4. Increase the Social Security contribution ceiling: while people only pay Social Security taxes on the first $106,800 of their wages today, that's only about 86% of the total potentially taxable wages. The co-chairs suggest raising the ceiling to capture 90% of wages.
    a program, especially one of such scale, that can't keep the fundamental promises its assured to hundreds of millions of americans over four generations is a failure

    americans pay in to the system under specified terms for a lifetime, and then they're all gonna see the rules changed on em?

    if social security is so great why does it need fixing in the first place?

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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    First of all, I'd like to see your numbers.
    that not enough people make enough money to get us out of the cartoonishly humongous crater of our debt and unfunded liabilities? easily done.

    If everyone earning more than $100,000 was taxed at 100 percent, the earnings would not cover the current budget.

    Repealing all of those Bush tax cuts, for rich and middle class alike, gets you about $3 trillion — over ten years

    There Aren't Enough Rich People to Pay for Medicare and Medicaid

    Taxing Those At $100,000 And Up at 100% Will Not Get Us Out Of This Year’s Deficit

    it's not the revenue.

    Former Head of the CBO: It's the Spending


    Secondly, who said anything about doing it all in one year? I'm proposing long-term changes.
    you are mistaking my meaning. the deficits are projected to get much, much, much, much worse as the baby-boomers explode the entitlements. and even a ridiculously destructive caricature of a confiscatory tax policy can't meet the deficit that we face now.
    Last edited by cpwill; 05-04-11 at 08:46 PM.

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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that not enough people make enough money to get us out of the cartoonishly humongous crater of our debt and unfunded liabilities? easily done.

    If everyone earning more than $100,000 was taxed at 100 percent, the earnings would not cover the current budget.

    Repealing all of those Bush tax cuts, for rich and middle class alike, gets you about $3 trillion — over ten years

    There Aren't Enough Rich People to Pay for Medicare and Medicaid

    Taxing Those At $100,000 And Up at 100% Will Not Get Us Out Of This Year’s Deficit



    you are mistaking my meaning. the deficits are projected to get much, much, much, much worse as the baby-boomers explode the entitlements. and even a ridiculously destructive caricature of a confiscatory tax policy can't meet the deficit that we face now.
    We may as well pull a Latin America and inflate the currency 20000%....

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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by Indon View Post
    Except there is a very real multiplier based on what percentage of the money is saved versus spent each time it goes through the cycle.
    except that the theory assumes that the government gets that money from the magic money tree. instead, government gets it either from taking it in the form of taxes, or by selling bonds. either way, it pulls money out of the market before it puts it back in. so the TRUE multiplier must subtract the economic productivity of privately spent and invested funds from the economic productivity of bureaucratically spent and invested funds.

    oh, but they have done some interesting study of the "multiplier" effect of the government "stimulus". care to guess? negative. as in, a multiplier of less than 1.

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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    except that the theory assumes that the government gets that money from the magic money tree. instead, government gets it either from taking it in the form of taxes, or by selling bonds. either way, it pulls money out of the market before it puts it back in. so the TRUE multiplier must subtract the economic productivity of privately spent and invested funds from the economic productivity of bureaucratically spent and invested funds.

    oh, but they have done some interesting study of the "multiplier" effect of the government "stimulus". care to guess? negative. as in, a multiplier of less than 1.
    Let me guess. They gave the stimulus money to the "banksters" and they kept it.! Who woulda thunk it? A non-productive part of the economy. Just so they wouldn't have to mark to market their real estate "mortgage" tranches. Bent over is good, don't stand up, nothing to be seen here. Move along.

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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ...it's not the revenue.
    Thanks for the links but I have to disagree.

    One of the links you provided included a link to Reducing the Deficit: Spending and Revenue Options. Figure 1-2 in that document (page 19 of the .pdf) is quite enlightening. If we do nothing, over the next 10 years, current law will increase revenue significantly and somewhat decrease expenditures. The effect will be to return the deficit to just slightly above its average of the last 40 years as a percentage of GDP. Enhancing revenue to a point just a bit greater than that already scheduled, then, will return the deficit to what we've experienced and, presumably, find comfortable.

    In fact, it is the revenue.
    Proud to be a tax and spend leftist.

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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    In the article, Douglas Holtz-Eakin, the author, says:

    Montgomery also devotes a bit of space to the particulars of the 2001 and 2003 tax laws. With the need for tax reform looming, this is a discussion that deserves attention. Good tax policy involves more than just taxes going up or down. In my view, there was a clear case for the 2001 tax cuts, but not much to defend regarding the quality of the cuts. In contrast, undertaking the 2003 cuts was a much tougher call, but they were of much higher, pro-growth quality.
    But here's a different view:

    In 2003, Holtz-Eakin left Syracuse University and the Council of Economic Advisers to become Director of the Congressional Budget Office.[3]

    Under his leadership, the budget office undertook a study of tax rates, which found that any new revenue that tax cuts brought in paled in comparison with their cost.[4] He left the appointment in 2005.

    Douglas Holtz-Eakin
    Looks like a significant discrepancy to me. On the one hand, he likes the tax cuts and, on the other, he doesn't.
    Proud to be a tax and spend leftist.

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    Re: Americans Blame Wasteful Government Spending for Deficit

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    bowles-simpson, link above:



    a program, especially one of such scale, that can't keep the fundamental promises its assured to hundreds of millions of americans over four generations is a failure

    americans pay in to the system under specified terms for a lifetime, and then they're all gonna see the rules changed on em?

    if social security is so great why does it need fixing in the first place?
    It needs fixing because the people in charge of the Social Security funds spent the money. That would be your politicians. Ain't they special? It's OK, just make an electronic entry and all is hunky-dory, but I don't think hunky-dory is an accounting term.

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