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Osama Bin Laden is dead

mac said:
wait, wait, wait.....isn't the overall claim being presented here that Obama is solely responsible to the exclusion of GWB? If the director of the CIA just said that waterboarding had an impact in finding and killing UBL, and that it's still going on, and that it is useful in interrogations....how then can you assert that it stopped in 2006 and that GWB had nothing to do with finding UBL?
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Not my claim. I don't credit either president. I suggest it was the good work of professionals doing their job.

And listen or read what he actually said. Not the comment on what he said. The link provided has the protions written.
 
mertex said:
For those that have claimed they were water boarded, perhaps they weren't aware that it was different?


The Secret Justice Department Memo

Looking at the previously secret August 1, 2002 Justice Department Memo issued only a month before the briefing, you can see it deals with whether waterboarding Abu Zubaydah would amount to torture. The memo was signed by Jay Bybee, the head of the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC), but apparently written by Berkeley law professor John Yoo. The memo says that it is based on the facts that the CIA's acting general counsel John Rizzo gave them.

The 18-page memo stresses three facts:

Thousands of US Troops (Navy Seals, Special Operations Forces) have gone through Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape Training (SERE), which includes waterboarding
Hardly any reports had been received of the trainees suffering subsequent ill effects
Waterboarding is essentially painless and lasts only "20 to 40 seconds"
The memo leaves out the following facts:

The SERE program permitted a trainee to be waterboarded only once or twice. (As stated above, the CIA waterboarded Zubaydah 83 times)
The SERE program was based on interrogation techniques used by North Korea and Communist China during the Korean War
The CIA used a harsher waterboarding method than did SERE, applying, according to the CIA Inspector General, "large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose" rather than the "small amount of water [applied] to the cloth in a controlled manner" for SERE trainees
More important than anything else, the American SERE trainees had volunteered and had to know that they were not going to be killed or seriously harmed. Individuals who are imprisoned have good reason to believe that the detaining authority (the CIA) might kill them, particularly after, among other things: Being hooded, placed in the equivalent of dog crates, repeatedly slammed against "flexible" walls, deprived of sleep while shackled in uncomfortable positions for up to a week at a time, and placed on a liquid diet
Print Page
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This information is inaccurate. I got it 6 times....and that's just the beginning of where it's inaccurate.
 
Boo Radley said:
Not my claim. I don't credit either president. I suggest it was the good work of professionals doing their job.

And listen or read what he actually said. Not the comment on what he said. The link provided has the protions written.
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Hmm, ok....then you recognize that waterboarding can be a legitimate interrogation technique?
 
667. Bin Laden's death is another trick (5/2/2011)

When people chanting for the news of Bin Laden's death, I have a sad feeling how ignorant people are cheated by this government. I also worry we may face a big "terror attack" planned by this government.

1. Since 911, I don't believe this government anymore. It is hijacked by a group of insiders. If they can cheat people with 911 such a big attack, what else can't they do? For those who insist to tarnish 911 truthers, one thing they can't deny is the "WMD" lie which justified war on Iraq. That's a big lie because it caused large civilian's casualty. Yet, that lie was neglected. The lier was awarded a second term of President because the inside group wants another war - Iran war. Bin Laden's death is only another soap opera - same like the death of Al Zarqawi. (so said Iraq Al Qaida)

2. There is a strategy purpose of Bin Laden's death - to justify a coming dirty bomb attack. The intelligence always arrange "provocative actions" to make the false flag terror attack reasonable. That was what we saw a month ago the "Quran burning" in Florida and the "veil ban" law passed in French. "Bin Laden's death" is a big one they push out today which indicates a big terror attack is going to happen recently.

3.It's a continuation of a series "nuclear crisis (bombing)" attempt since later last year. (see my posts from #651) You may verify it from rare report news. (not from US media)

GORDON DUFF: NYC DIRTY BOMB “DRILL” – LARGEST IN NATIONAL HISTORY…IS IT A DRILL?
April 6, 2011 posted by Gordon Duff

CENSORED TERROR “DRILL” MOST COSTLY IN HISTORY
“More checkpoints per square mile than Baghdad”
By Gordon Duff STAFF WRITER/Senior Editor

Busloads of police were brought into New York, some from distant communities. The national press, generously called the “mainstream media” reported none of this today. There was a defacto news blackout about the scale and nature of what is happening in New York City today.
............

The story in New York is that the city is testing its capability of detecting a “dirty bomb” or other “radiological device.” At a time when most municipalities are flat broke, busted, New York is spending an unprecedented amount, in what is said to be a drill. The city is hunting four “imaginary terror groups.”

GORDON DUFF: NYC DIRTY BOMB “DRILL” – LARGEST IN NATIONAL HISTORY…IS IT A DRILL? : Veterans Today
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US tornadoes force shutdown of two nuclear reactors in Virginia

Ewen MacAskill in Washington
guardian.co.uk, Monday 18 April 2011

A US nuclear power company has disclosed that one of the tornadoes that hit the US at the weekend, killing at least 45 people and causing widespread damage, forced the shutdown of two of its reactors.

The series of tornadoes that began in Oklahoma late last week barrelled across the country, with North Carolina, where 22 people died, the worst-hit state.

US tornadoes force shutdown of two nuclear reactors in Virginia | World news | The Guardian
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Nine days later, on 4/27 there was an unprecedentary tornado storms attacked East side of America. Scientists suggested "some of the tonadoes may have been among the largest and most powerful ever recorded. " "2011 Tornado Outbreak Death Toll Hits 337, Second-Deadliest Day From Twister In U.S. History".

On 3/11, Japan suffered an earthquake biggerst ever in its history. On 4/27, US suffered a largest and most powerful ever recorded tonado storms. When both failed to produce a nuclear pollution crisis in US, the Feds activates Bin Laden. Beware of a coming "nuclear bomb attack". (Or dirty bomb attack)
 
Here:

BRIAN WILLIAMS: I'd like to ask you about the sourcing on the intel that ultimately led to this successful attack. Can you confirm that it was as a result of waterboarding that we learned what we needed to learn to go after bin Laden?

LEON PANETTA: You know Brian, in the intelligence business you work from a lot of sources of information, and that was true here. We had a multiple source -- a multiple series of sources -- that provided information with regards to this situation. Clearly, some of it came from detainees and the interrogation of detainees. But we also had information from other sources as well. So, it's a little difficult to say it was due just to one source of information that we got
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.

He does not say here we got information from torture or waterboarding. He says interrogation. Thsi could mean conventional interrogation. he does not specify.

WILLIAMS: Turned around the other way, are you denying that waterboarding was in part among the tactics used to extract the intelligence that led to this successful mission?

PANETTA: No, I think some of the detainees clearly were, you know, they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees. But I'm also saying that, you know, the debate about whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always going to be an open question.
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Again, we know they were waterboarded. What we don't know, and he doesn't say one way or another is if we got the information from the waterboarding. If we follow the timeline provided with other sources, we know waterboarding stopped in 2006 and we got the information in 2007, so it is unlikely we got the information from waterboarding.

WILLIAMS: So, finer point, one final time, enhanced interrogation techniques -- which has always been kind of a handy euphemism in these post-9/11 years -- that includes waterboarding?

PANETTA: That's correct.
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This says nothing on the issue.

linked earlier:

RealClearPolitics - Video - Panetta: "Open Question" If Waterboarding Helped Find Bin Laden
 
mac said:
Hmm, ok....then you recognize that waterboarding can be a legitimate interrogation technique?
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No, I don't. It's torture and torture is and always has been illegal. Nor do I think we got anythign related to this from waterboarding.
 
Boo Radley said:
Here:

.

He does not say here we got information from torture or waterboarding. He says interrogation. Thsi could mean conventional interrogation. he does not specify.



Again, we know they were waterboarded. What we don't know, and he doesn't say one way or another is if we got the information from the waterboarding. If we follow the timeline provided with other sources, we know waterboarding stopped in 2006 and we got the information in 2007, so it is unlikely we got the information from waterboarding.




This says nothing on the issue.

linked earlier:

RealClearPolitics - Video - Panetta: "Open Question" If Waterboarding Helped Find Bin Laden
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Boo Radley said:
No, I don't. It's torture and torture is and always has been illegal. Nor do I think we got anythign related to this from waterboarding.
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but he clearly indicates that it was entirely possible that it was a result of EIT and that is is ongoing. How do you reconcile that?
 
it is true (according to the cia ig's report issued by the doj) that ksm provided the nom de guerre of the courier NOT under waterboarding but instead in the months after his "transformation from an avowed and truculent enemy of the us into the cia's preeminent source on al qaeda"

"the evidence is clear: ksm cooperated, and to an extradordinary extent, only after his spirit was broken in the month after his capture" when he was waterboarded 183 times, among other unpleasant eit's

ksm provided the code name, al libi clued us in to the significance of the tip (ie, that following the fella would lead to ubl)

read the sources, linked above

thank you, president obama, for leaving in place the anti terror approaches put in place by your predecessor which led to the assassination of america's greatest enemy

a job well done, all around
 
mac said:
but he clearly indicates that it was entirely possible that it was a result of EIT and that is is ongoing. How do you reconcile that?
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He is careful to not indicate much of anything. And nowhere does he suggest it is on going. In fact, the courts ahve ruled it can't be ongoing. This stuff was stopped in 2006. If we find it is ongoing, arrests should be made. Instead it is more likely conventional interrorgation techniques had more effect, as linked earlier.
 
mac said:
This information is inaccurate. I got it 6 times....and that's just the beginning of where it's inaccurate.
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Well, I guess without any links to prove that you got it 6 times, we will never know, will we? And it is a memo from the Justice Department, unless we have a link showing otherwise, from a reputable source, it can't be refuted.

But, it seems highly unlikely that CIA officers would be this wimpy.


It was reported that “CIA officers who subjected themselves to the waterboarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in.”[8] According to the CIA, three prisoners in American custody have been “waterboarded.”[9]

Waterboarding is Illegal - Washington University Law Review
 
when asked, the cia director could NOT say eit's played NO role

given the incendiary politics surrounding torture, he certainly must have wanted to

but how could he, after what his own ig reported

obama's turned out to be quite the NEOCON, it appears
 
The Prof said:
when asked, the cia director could NOT say eit's played NO role

given the incendiary politics surrounding torture, he certainly must have wanted to

but how could he, after what his own ig reported

obama's turned out to be quite the NEOCON, it appears
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Its because the CIA director, unlike many discussing this, understand how intelligence gathering happens and what likely lead into this string of intelligence. Strands began being added to this string of intelligence as far back as 2004 reportedly, and likely from many, many sources. To say with certainty that EIT's played no part in recovering any of the intelligence that added to this string of intelligence would be nearly impossible. Contrary to how some people percieve, this wasn't just one day KSM popped out a name, we took it and a short while later got Osama. The existance of the couriers likely came from multiple lower sensitivity sources, ditto with his allias, and other such thing, with KSM's input likely being the lynchpin to verify it all.

To say that EIT's definitely contributed to it is foolish and unverifable...but so is saying they most concretely had no effect on it.
 
Zyphlin said:
Its because the CIA director, unlike many discussing this, understand how intelligence gathering happens and what likely lead into this string of intelligence. Strands began being added to this string of intelligence as far back as 2004 reportedly, and likely from many, many sources. To say with certainty that EIT's played no part in recovering any of the intelligence that added to this string of intelligence would be nearly impossible. Contrary to how some people percieve, this wasn't just one day KSM popped out a name, we took it and a short while later got Osama. The existance of the couriers likely came from multiple lower sensitivity sources, ditto with his allias, and other such thing, with KSM's input likely being the lynchpin to verify it all.

To say that EIT's definitely contributed to it is foolish and unverifable...but so is saying they most concretely had no effect on it.
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That's highly doubtful. We're talking about UBL's actual location. That information would have only been intrusted to the very highest levels within AQ. Therefore, the nuggets that were obtained, were gathered from those high level personel. Most of those high level personel were, without a doubt, smacked around a little.
 
Boo Radley said:
He is careful to not indicate much of anything. And nowhere does he suggest it is on going. In fact, the courts ahve ruled it can't be ongoing. This stuff was stopped in 2006. If we find it is ongoing, arrests should be made. Instead it is more likely conventional interrorgation techniques had more effect, as linked earlier.
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If it was stopped in 2006...and eit was possibly responsible for UBL's take down....then GWB is entirely to blame, right?
 
mertex said:
Well, I guess without any links to prove that you got it 6 times, we will never know, will we? And it is a memo from the Justice Department, unless we have a link showing otherwise, from a reputable source, it can't be refuted.

But, it seems highly unlikely that CIA officers would be this wimpy.


It was reported that “CIA officers who subjected themselves to the waterboarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in.”[8] According to the CIA, three prisoners in American custody have been “waterboarded.”[9]

Waterboarding is Illegal - Washington University Law Review
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lol, right, cuz links are everything. If it ain't on the net, it didn't happen, right?

ughhhh......
 
Grant said:
What you believe is to be true might be at great variance from the facts. Perhaps in a few years we'll know more facts about what actually happened.
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Fair enough...

You don't actually know that he was in anyone's grasp. You still seem to be running with your beliefs.
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Beliefs based on atleast two documentaries on OBL and two books I've read ("Return of the Empirial Presidency" and "Your Government Failed You") that state the same thing - OBL was in the hills of Tora Bora and the GW Bush administration for whatever reason let him slip threw the cracks. That's not my belief; it is fact.

You really needn't concede anything. If the rights of terrorists are more important than the possibility of saving innocent lives then you can stick to that belief. If I am in command I'd use every means at my disposal in order to save the lives of innocents. Booth beliefs are common enough and there is room for both.
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Let's no play the "peace-nik" card here. You didn't read anything I've posted that said terrorist get a pass for their terrorist acts nor that NATO is the "be-all/end-all" of U.S. foriegn policy/military affairs. So, get off that tip. I don't believe terrorist desereve having their Maranda Rights read to them any more than I believe enemy combatants deserve to be treated in the harshest manner imaginable. However, I do believe that if you as a nation sign treaties that condem torture (Re: Geneva Convention) you simply should not practise it. That said, I have no problem with "rendition".

Those blessed with 20/20 hindsight are often silent during times of crisis.
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I fail to see what this has to do with that portion of my commentary stated above (post #671). Perhaps you can elaborate...

[Yes. it might have taken longer and more innocent people might have died. Are you for taking action when he is within NATO's grasp or are you for taking a bit longer?
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Again, what does NATO have to do with this or any aspect of the War on Terror where the U.S. military and our counterintelligence is concerned? To answer your questions, I'm always for getting the job done in the most expeditious way possible. To put this in perspective, folks still debate dropping the H-Bomb on Japan...TWICE! I have no problem with it because it forced their unconditional surrender. We've "paid" for it ever since, though. There are always consequences to one's actions whether we can foresee them or not.
 
Objective Voice said:
Fair enough...



Beliefs based on atleast two documentaries on OBL and two books I've read ("Return of the Empirial Presidency" and "Your Government Failed You") that state the same thing - OBL was in the hills of Tora Bora and the GW Bush administration for whatever reason let him slip threw the cracks. That's not my belief; it is fact.



Let's no play the "peace-nik" card here. You didn't read anything I've posted that said terrorist get a pass for their terrorist acts nor that NATO is the "be-all/end-all" of U.S. foriegn policy/military affairs. So, get off that tip. I don't believe terrorist desereve having their Maranda Rights read to them any more than I believe enemy combatants deserve to be treated in the harshest manner imaginable. However, I do believe that if you as a nation sign treaties that condem torture (Re: Geneva Convention) you simply should not practise it. That said, I have no problem with "rendition".



I fail to see what this has to do with that portion of my commentary stated above (post #671). Perhaps you can elaborate...



Again, what does NATO have to do with this or any aspect of the War on Terror where the U.S. military and our counterintelligence is concerned? To answer your questions, I'm always for getting the job done in the most expeditious way possible. To put this in perspective, folks still debate dropping the H-Bomb on Japan...TWICE! I have no problem with it because it forced their unconditional surrender. We've "paid" for it ever since, though. There are always consequences to one's actions whether we can foresee them or not.
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That's an opinion, not a fact. There's proof that Bush intentionally, "let him slip threw the cracks".

What is a fact, is that UBL was seen, on horseback, at Tora Bora about 60 seconds before we carpet bombed the area. If he got out, it was nothing more than luck.
 
apdst said:
That's an opinion, not a fact. There's proof that Bush intentionally, "let him slip threw the cracks".

What is a fact, is that UBL was seen, on horseback, at Tora Bora about 60 seconds before we carpet bombed the area. If he got out, it was nothing more than luck.
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I believe you meant "There's no proof." Just for clarification.
 
The Prof said:
tell it to the inspector general of the cia
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Do you have any links indicating that the Inspector General of the CIA believes that water boarding provided the results? Most articles I have read claim that the information came much later.
 
mac said:
lol, right, cuz links are everything. If it ain't on the net, it didn't happen, right?

ughhhh......
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Yeah, just because you say it happened, that makes it true! As usual, you can't provide any credible source to back up your claims - and we're supposed to take your word for it,
roflmao.gif
 
mertex said:
Yeah, just because you say it happened, that makes it true! As usual, you can't provide any credible source to back up your claims - and we're supposed to take your word for it,
roflmao.gif
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Most people have life experiences which are "un-provable" simply because there was no-one there to post pictures, or perhaps they happened before Facebook and youtube existed. Btw, they weren't always there, Mertex.

You can go through life believing nothing that is not in black and white if you choose, but you are going to be a rather boring and predictable person as a result. There's a lot more to the world than what's written in Wikipedia, hon.
 
mac said:
Most people have life experiences which are "un-provable" simply because there was no-one there to post pictures, or perhaps they happened before Facebook and youtube existed. Btw, they weren't always there, Mertex.
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Of course, the fact that you were water boarded 6 times is "unprovable" but we are supposed to take your word for it? Maybe your friends at a social gathering will take you at your word, but here on these Forums, you need to have some credible source backing your statements, otherwise they are just laughable. Especially, when we have links to show that CIA officers were unable to stand it for more than 14 seconds, and a right-wing radio talk show host had it done to prove, like you, that it was not a big deal and not torture only to tell the whole country the opposite?

Erich "Mancow" Muller, a Chicago-based conservative radio host, recently decided to silence critics of waterboarding once and for all. He would undergo the procedure himself, and then he would be able to confidently convince others that it is not, in fact, torture.

Or so he thought. Instead, Muller came out convinced.

"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow said. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back... It was instantaneous... and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."
Mancow Waterboarded (VIDEO): Conservative Radio Host Say It's Torture




You can go through life believing nothing that is not in black and white if you choose, but you are going to be a rather boring and predictable person as a result. There's a lot more to the world than what's written in Wikipedia, hon.
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I'm sure there is, but if you want to be credible on these Forums, you might want to come up with facts to back up your fairy tales. I would much rather be boring and unpredictable then to be laughed at for making up la-la-land tales.
 
mertex said:
Do you have any links indicating that the Inspector General of the CIA believes that water boarding provided the results?
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my first post in this thread, wapo, august 29, 2009

but that's not exactly how the sources say it went down

ksm offered the courier's nom de guerre NOT under eit's but only AFTER "his spirit was broken" by the extremely rough treatment he was subjected to, somewhere in east europe, in the month after his capture

the "avowed and truculent enemy of the united states," after the eit's, underwent a "transformation," a "reversal"

he "cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent," he became the cia's "preeminent source on al qaeda"

it is true beyond ksm the intelligence chain involved many sources, years of time, hundreds of legs, thousands of miles

and outside of ksm and al libi, also waterboarded, no further eit's were used on the road to ubl in my sources

but a puzzle as complex as the way ksm was found, without its "preeminent source...."

it's clear that ksm and al libi played central roles in rooting out the lead

more couldn't really be said, but no less either

read the 4 links above, wapo, abc, telegraph and reuters
 
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