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Osama Bin Laden is dead

I really don't have a horse in your race Ben. I think I've pretty well shown why I suspected that it was censored at least to some degree in your country. Other than that I'm only interested in the truth. Your suggestio of a conspiracy theory on this forum doesn't interest me. Your angle of attack does however subtract a little from your credibility already. You shouldn't let that happen as it only goes to show further that you want to believe but are now in doubt as to whether or not to believe.

However you want to play it is fine with me!

I just find it suspicious and distasteful to expect people to run around and report evidence back to you as if there word isn't good enough on something as apolitical as that, almost as much as your username.

I would be glad if Osama were dead, I don't have the evidence to say he definately has died in the manner stated yet. I'd agree that there's far more room for the inevitable conspiracy theories in this event than there was with 9/11 and I fear a lifetime of reading clutching at straws theorists reservations. I just sincerely doubt Obama would lie about this, whether or not the operation itself was the gutsiest move made by a recent American president, a lie of this magnitude certainly would be.
 
I've posted them before. Link: The Treatment of Detainees in U.S. Custody





From your link:




All of this training sounds like EIT to me. :shrug:

And read on:



there is also this:

In fact, waterboarding is just the type of torture then Lt. Commander John McCain had to endure at the hands of the North Vietnamese. As a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California I know the waterboard personally and intimately. SERE staff were required undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception. I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school’s interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques used by the US army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What was not mentioned in most articles was that SERE was designed to show how an evil totalitarian, enemy would use torture at the slightest whim. If this is the case, then waterboarding is unquestionably being used as torture technique.

Naval Leadership: Waterboarding is Torture… Period

There's much more out there and I've probably linked it all at one time or another. But the point is they are not the same, and waterboarding is torture.




The techniques used in SERE training can include things
like stripping students of their clothing, placing them in
stress positions, putting hoods over their heads, disrupting
their sleep, treating them like animals, subjecting them to
loud music and flashing lights, and exposing them to extreme
temperatures. It can also include face and body slaps, and
until recently, for some sailors who attended the Navy's SERE
school, it included waterboarding, which is mock drowning.
The SERE schools obviously take extreme care to avoid
injuring our own soldiers. Troops are medically screened to
make sure that they're fit for the SERE course. Prior to the
training, each student's physical limitations are carefully
documented to reduce the chance that the SERE training and the
use of SERE techniques will cause injury.
There are explicit limitations on the duration and
intensity of physical pressures. For example, when
waterboarding was permitted at the Navy SERE school, the
instructor manual stated that a maximum of 2 pints of water
could be used on a student who was being waterboarded, and, if
a cloth was used to cover a student's face, it could stay in
place a maximum of 20 seconds.



How long was KSM waterboarded for?




And that's funny, I was at the USAF school in Washington, they did it there too...
 
A good possibility exists that McCain never was tortured and he became a songbird in time to prevent it. I won't argue the issue further here, just to bring it up is enough.

When I was waterboarded it wasn't torture, it was funny. I stuck a rag in my mouth and poured water on it myself. I couldn't stop laughing long enough to take it seriously. You people should stop talking long enough to understand that training in getting waterboarded is not serious. If I could get to waterboard our military quasi-expert friend here he wouldn't think it was funny at all. It would be much different than his play session. Perhaps he's just trying to make some kind of gung-ho tough guy point. I think so!





And read on:



there is also this:

In fact, waterboarding is just the type of torture then Lt. Commander John McCain had to endure at the hands of the North Vietnamese. As a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California I know the waterboard personally and intimately. SERE staff were required undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception. I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school’s interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques used by the US army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What was not mentioned in most articles was that SERE was designed to show how an evil totalitarian, enemy would use torture at the slightest whim. If this is the case, then waterboarding is unquestionably being used as torture technique.

Naval Leadership: Waterboarding is Torture… Period

There's much more out there and I've probably linked it all at one time or another. But the point is they are not the same, and waterboarding is torture.[/QUOTE]
 
To those who want to give Bush a whole lot more credit than he deserves in this matter, sorry to burst your bubble:

May 3, 2011 5:26 PM
Debate continues over role of waterboarding in gathering bin Laden intel
Posted by Stephanie Condon
(Credit: CBS/AP)
Various accounts of the intelligence gathering that led to the death of Osama bin Laden gave rise to the suggestion on Monday that the mission to kill the al Qaeda leader was successful in part because of the "enhanced interrogation techniques" the U.S. used on some terrorism detainees.

Since then, however, the White House, some leaders in Congress and former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld have all played down the notion that waterboarding or other "enhanced" techniques aided the mission. At least one congressman, however -- Rep. Peter King (R-N.Y.) -- maintains that waterboarding helped.

"The fact is that no single piece of information led to the successful mission that occurred on Sunday," White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said in a press briefing Tuesday. Multiple detainees provided insights, Carney said, and those insights were "just a slice of information" intelligence analysts gathered and used to track bin Laden.

Carney said it was "simply strange... to suggest a piece of information that may or my not have been gathered eight years ago somehow led to a successful mission on Sunday."

He added that there has been "no change whatsoever" to President Obama's opposition to the use of enhanced interrogation techniques.

The question of the role such techniques played in this mission arose after the Associated Press reported that it was two key detainees -- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libi -- who gave American officials the nickname of a courier who ultimately led U.S. intelligence officials to bin Laden. The two detainees reportedly gave the information up at foreign CIA "black sites," where waterboarding occurred.

However, the AP fleshed out its report later in the day. Citing unnamed former officials, the AP wrote, "Mohammed did not discuss al-Kuwaiti while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding... He acknowledged knowing him many months later under standard interrogation."

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, backed up the assertion today that waterboarding did not play a role in the sting against bin Laden.
Debate continues over role of waterboarding in gathering bin Laden intel - Political Hotsheet - CBS News
 
How long was KSM waterboarded for?




And that's funny, I was at the USAF school in Washington, they did it there too...

Again, you ignore the differences and what those who do it say.
 
I just find it suspicious and distasteful to expect people to run around and report evidence back to you as if there word isn't good enough on something as apolitical as that, almost as much as your username.

I would be glad if Osama were dead, I don't have the evidence to say he definately has died in the manner stated yet. I'd agree that there's far more room for the inevitable conspiracy theories in this event than there was with 9/11 and I fear a lifetime of reading clutching at straws theorists reservations. I just sincerely doubt Obama would lie about this, whether or not the operation itself was the gutsiest move made by a recent American president, a lie of this magnitude certainly would be.

To begin with you need to realize that your president may not even be in on the truth. He's more of a figurehead than anything important. A figure to talk to the people, nothing much more these days. A political pesona so to speak.

The move by Obama, if in fact he had anything to do with it is neither gutsy or non-gutsy. You people have come to believe that your president is much more than her really is and he's somehow responsible for a lot more than a politician could ever be responsible for. (and no, I'm not an extreme rightist any more than I'm an extreme leftist) I'm here to help you people understand a little better.

I don't 'want' to believe on way or another. I'm only being rational and going where the evidence leads me. You Americans should stop wanting something to be and use your heads to determine what is, is. Remember how Clinton knew?
 
Are you sure you're right about that? Al Jazeera shows a message asking for Americans to demand Al Jazeera. Or at least they did? I'll see if I can find it there.

I'm absolutely positive of it. It's available in most metro markets and is not in many rural areas. It not being available in rural areas is a product of demand (or lack thereof) not censorship.
 
According to those who do it, it's a toned down version that is not equal to actual waterboarding. I've posted this in the past. even the creaters of this program consider waterboarding torture.

For those that have claimed they were water boarded, perhaps they weren't aware that it was different?


The Secret Justice Department Memo

Looking at the previously secret August 1, 2002 Justice Department Memo issued only a month before the briefing, you can see it deals with whether waterboarding Abu Zubaydah would amount to torture. The memo was signed by Jay Bybee, the head of the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC), but apparently written by Berkeley law professor John Yoo. The memo says that it is based on the facts that the CIA's acting general counsel John Rizzo gave them.

The 18-page memo stresses three facts:

Thousands of US Troops (Navy Seals, Special Operations Forces) have gone through Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape Training (SERE), which includes waterboarding
Hardly any reports had been received of the trainees suffering subsequent ill effects
Waterboarding is essentially painless and lasts only "20 to 40 seconds"
The memo leaves out the following facts:

The SERE program permitted a trainee to be waterboarded only once or twice. (As stated above, the CIA waterboarded Zubaydah 83 times)
The SERE program was based on interrogation techniques used by North Korea and Communist China during the Korean War
The CIA used a harsher waterboarding method than did SERE, applying, according to the CIA Inspector General, "large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose" rather than the "small amount of water [applied] to the cloth in a controlled manner" for SERE trainees
More important than anything else, the American SERE trainees had volunteered and had to know that they were not going to be killed or seriously harmed. Individuals who are imprisoned have good reason to believe that the detaining authority (the CIA) might kill them, particularly after, among other things: Being hooded, placed in the equivalent of dog crates, repeatedly slammed against "flexible" walls, deprived of sleep while shackled in uncomfortable positions for up to a week at a time, and placed on a liquid diet
Print Page
 
For those that have claimed they were water boarded, perhaps they weren't aware that it was different?


The Secret Justice Department Memo

Looking at the previously secret August 1, 2002 Justice Department Memo issued only a month before the briefing, you can see it deals with whether waterboarding Abu Zubaydah would amount to torture. The memo was signed by Jay Bybee, the head of the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC), but apparently written by Berkeley law professor John Yoo. The memo says that it is based on the facts that the CIA's acting general counsel John Rizzo gave them.

The 18-page memo stresses three facts:

Thousands of US Troops (Navy Seals, Special Operations Forces) have gone through Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape Training (SERE), which includes waterboarding
Hardly any reports had been received of the trainees suffering subsequent ill effects
Waterboarding is essentially painless and lasts only "20 to 40 seconds"
The memo leaves out the following facts:

The SERE program permitted a trainee to be waterboarded only once or twice. (As stated above, the CIA waterboarded Zubaydah 83 times)
The SERE program was based on interrogation techniques used by North Korea and Communist China during the Korean War
The CIA used a harsher waterboarding method than did SERE, applying, according to the CIA Inspector General, "large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose" rather than the "small amount of water [applied] to the cloth in a controlled manner" for SERE trainees
More important than anything else, the American SERE trainees had volunteered and had to know that they were not going to be killed or seriously harmed. Individuals who are imprisoned have good reason to believe that the detaining authority (the CIA) might kill them, particularly after, among other things: Being hooded, placed in the equivalent of dog crates, repeatedly slammed against "flexible" walls, deprived of sleep while shackled in uncomfortable positions for up to a week at a time, and placed on a liquid diet
Print Page

I have tried to show them that it was different. You do a nice job of spelling out the differences. Thanks.
 
Well stated again. Now I'll leave it up to you to try to determine what my political objective really is. My agenda as you suggest. Have I given you any hint so far? I think I've at least shown you that I don't buy into American propaganda all the time. Especially when America provides reason to doubt their propaganda. And you?l What's your agenda. You have provided a hint that it's got something to do with damage control so far. And you don't like my name so you tell me that others won't so I should change it.

It's not a case of not liking your username, I just think you are in danger of letting your impulse to provoke override your desire to debate. As far as my agenda, well I'm a libertarian socialist. I am critical of US foreign policy in many respects. Ask the Rev, we've butted heads on occasion. My agenda is to maximise rational discussion and minimise posturing and token politics.

I've tried and failed to get an analytical discussion going on the Osama issue on another thread but had to admit that many, many DP posters are not in any mood to analyse until they've got a little triumphalism and schadenfreude out of their systems... and I respect that actually. Several posters here have lost friends and family at the hands of Bin Laden and his crew, many are or have family members serving in the forces. I'm not about to criticise them for feeling a sense of relief, closure, triumph or satisfaction, much as I might have been totally opposed to the Iraq war and the 'War on Terrorism'.

To a lot of people, whether they chose it or not, this issue is far more than an internet debate, so however strongly you feel about this issue, show a little restraint and common human understanding rather than just pursuing your intellectual train of thought and damn the consequences. I probably agree with you more than 90% of other people on DP, but there are ways and ways of conducting a debate depending on time and context.
 
To begin with you need to realize that your president may not even be in on the truth. He's more of a figurehead than anything important. A figure to talk to the people, nothing much more these days. A political pesona so to speak.

The move by Obama, if in fact he had anything to do with it is neither gutsy or non-gutsy. You people have come to believe that your president is much more than her really is and he's somehow responsible for a lot more than a politician could ever be responsible for. (and no, I'm not an extreme rightist any more than I'm an extreme leftist) I'm here to help you people understand a little better.

I don't 'want' to believe on way or another. I'm only being rational and going where the evidence leads me. You Americans should stop wanting something to be and use your heads to determine what is, is. Remember how Clinton knew?

You've already been informed I'm not American and you've already been informed that AJ isn't censored in the States, yet you continue to believe otherwise. Perhaps aside from preaching you may indulge in a little listening.

And Obama may have been watching a home made movie of the "assassination"? Look, if its bs he definately knew and everyone else there knew. They would be far more hated than Osama ever was if it came to light. That would be the gutsiest gamble ever for political or financial gain if you ask me.

But I don't get the impression you're a listener.
 
I have tried to show them that it was different. You do a nice job of spelling out the differences. Thanks.



ahh good you found it. :thumbs:



good for you.



So, tell me now, tell me how bad you feel for KSM, I mean after all those 83 times, it led to the guy who led us to Osama. :lamo
 
So no answer, you have no idea for the time and duration ksm was waterboarded. Thanks for your concession.

Actually, we do don't we? some 183 times, right? However, it has nothing to do with what we're discussing, so I see no relevence in your question. I suspect it is more diversion. you do like to leap all over the place right? :coffeepap
 
ahh good you found it. :thumbs:



good for you.



So, tell me now, tell me how bad you feel for KSM, I mean after all those 83 times, it led to the guy who led us to Osama. :lamo

But it didn't. that's the point. See the link earlier. He did not give it up under torture. We got the information with conventional methods.
 
Actually, we do don't we? some 183 times, right? However, it has nothing to do with what we're discussing, so I see no relevence in your question. I suspect it is more diversion. you do like to leap all over the place right? :coffeepap


I acknowledge, this, last post dood, you score no points by whining after the fact. :lol:
 
But it didn't. that's the point. See the link earlier. He did not give it up under torture. We got the inofrmation with conventional methods.



Duh. So if I beat the living crap out of you, for 83 days, and then on the 84th a schoolgirl comes up to you and asks you pretty please, and you give in, it must have been the girl, not the threat of another beatdown. You guys are too much sometimes. :lamo
 
I acknowledge, this, last post dood, you score no points by whining after the fact. :lol:

no one's whining. you're merely diverting from your mistake. SERE is not equal to waterboarding as it is different. And torture did not get the information that led to OBL's death.
 
Duh. So if I beat the living crap out of you, for 83 days, and then on the 84th a schoolgirl comes up to you and asks you pretty please, and you give in, it must have been the girl, not the threat of another beatdown. You guys are too much sometimes. :lamo

it wasn't the next day either. It was months later. There is no logical way to link it to the waterboarding.
 
no one's whining. you're merely diverting from your mistake. SERE is not equal to waterboarding as it is different. And torture did not get the information that led to OBL's death.


Dood, your posturing is more absurd than usual.

We were indeed waterboarded. that's a fact. not 83 times or whatever, but we were indeed waterboarded.


Pinetta disagrees with you. :lamo
 
it wasn't the next day either. It was months later. There is no logical way to link it to the waterboarding.



okay dood, whatever you need to believe.... :shrug: I'm about done with this emperors new clothes schtick of yours. :lamo
 
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