• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Osama Bin Laden is dead

StillBallin75 said:
You just repeated what I said, mac. All I'm saying is that just because you went through it, doesn't make it not torture. There's a pretty strong consensus that it is most definitely a form of torture.
Click to expand...

actually what it does is make it a training technique...innocuous enough to be used in a training environment.
 
mac said:
actually what it does is make it a training technique...innocuous enough to be used in a training environment.
Click to expand...

Alright, let's just say for the sake of argument that waterboarding IS a training technique. What exactly about waterboarding makes it "not torture"?
 
StillBallin75 said:
Alright, let's just say for the sake of argument that waterboarding IS a training technique. What exactly about waterboarding makes it "not torture"?
Click to expand...

relative severity. Is loosing a ball game or getting hurt in a ball game, torture? How about a reeaaalllyyy long math test?
 
mac said:
relative severity. Is loosing a ball game or getting hurt in a ball game, torture? How about a reeaaalllyyy long math test?
Click to expand...

So, it's a matter of degree/intensity? Would you agree that on a small scale (like say, 10-30 second), waterboarding would perhaps not be torture, but if done for a longer period of time, it would fairly be classified as torture?

I've already provided a dictionary definition that classifies waterboarding as torture. Here's what wikipedia has to say:

Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Waterboarding is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts,[4][34][35] politicians, war veterans,[36][37] intelligence officials,[38] military judges,[39] and human rights organizations.[21][40] David Miliband, then United Kingdom Foreign Secretary, described it as torture on 19 July 2008, and stated "the UK unreservedly condemns the use of torture."[41] Arguments have been put forward that it might not be torture in all cases, or that it is unclear.[16][42][43][44] The U.S. State Department has recognized "submersion of the head in water" as torture in other circumstances, for example, in its 2005 Country Report on Tunisia.[45]

The United Nations' Report of the Committee Against Torture: Thirty-fifth Session of November 2006, stated that state parties should rescind any interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, that constitutes torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.[46]
Click to expand...

I think there's a pretty solid rationale for classifying waterboarding as torture.
 
the facts are now wall to wall

the HOT tips that got ubl came from ksm and al libi after their sprits were broken by eit's and they became cooperative "to an extraordinary degree"

Bin Laden kill may reopen CIA interrogation debate | Reuters

WikiLeaks: Osama bin Laden killed after tip-offs from Guantanamo - Telegraph

Phone Call by Kuwaiti Courier Led to Bin Laden - ABC News

congratulations, president obama, for NOT dismantling your predecessor's anti terror tactics, thus allowing our special ops to GET ubl
 
j-mac said:
Ok, so you would rather we merely asked with a pretty please at the end...
Click to expand...
I don't think that the comment you are replying to means what you're trying to imply it means with the above reply.
j-mac said:
...what when they say go screw yourself?
j-mac
Click to expand...
I suspect it is assumed from the get-go that the interrogated will say such.



1) Educing Information
Interrogation: Science and Art Foundations for the Future
Intelligence Science Board National Defense Intelligence College
Washington, DC December 2006
(in particular this section)
KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation Review: Observations of an Interrogator – Lessons Learned and Avenues for Further Research

2) KUBARK [CIA] Counterintelligence Interrogation
July 1963

3) Anything about Hanns Scharff
"hanns scharff" - Google Search

Hanns Scharff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
StillBallin75 said:
So, it's a matter of degree/intensity? Would you agree that on a small scale (like say, 10-30 second), waterboarding would perhaps not be torture, but if done for a longer period of time, it would fairly be classified as torture?

I've already provided a dictionary definition that classifies waterboarding as torture. Here's what wikipedia has to say:

Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I think there's a pretty solid rationale for classifying waterboarding as torture.
Click to expand...

I think if you rode it long enough...a roller coaster could be classed as torture. Or maybe, hanging with your mother-in-law. If done for long enough, anything is torture. Water boarding ain't torture. Electrodes on testicles...torture..., toothpics under fingernails...torture, getting your head sawed off on the internet.......really?

Reading Amazed's posts......you get the point.
 
Last edited:
mac said:
I think if you rode it long enough...a roller coaster could be classed as torture. Or maybe, hanging with your mother-in-law. If done for long enough, anything is torture. Water boarding ain't torture. Electrodes on testicles...torture..., toothpics under fingernails...torture, getting your head sawed off on the internet.......really?

Reading Amazed's posts......you get the point.
Click to expand...

Well, yes reading Amazed's posts kills my brain.

That being said, how is waterboarding different from testicles and fingernails?

This is the dictionary definition for torture:

Torture | Define Torture at Dictionary.com

the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
Click to expand...

I think that's a pretty fair definition, and in my opinion waterboarding can reasonably be included. If you think any different, why?
 
gekaap said:
I guess that's your clever way of saying that Obama doesn't deserve any actual credit.
Click to expand...


Which is pretty foolish since most Republican leaders have given Obama kudos for doing a great job.

Of course Obama deserves the credit for it, without his go-ahead (and he was taking a big risk if the operation had failed) it would have never been done. There will always be sour grapes - who will not give Obama credit for anything! I guess they don't mind appearing foolish on this one.
 
dontworrybehappy said:
I don't give Bush credit for capturing Saddam, nor Obama credit for killing Bin Laden. Obama was briefed on intelligence gathered by people who put their lives in grave danger. You can brief a potplant, but that doesn't make the potplant the one who should get the credit. Obama didn't plan, coordinate or execute any part of that mission. He simply had the authority to make it happen. That doesn't make it his puppy.

Had it gone terribly wrong, I wouldn't be blaming him, just like I don't blame him when civilians are killed in bombings in Libya, Afghanistan or Iraq. In fact, I'm one of the only posters on this forum that completely supports his efforts in Libya and wishes he would step up the bombing. The only reason I would blame Clinton for the Blackhawk down incident is because he was directly involved in not sending in enough people to get the job done. Obama had nothing to do with that aspect of it. Obama made a gutsy move to use the seals, which was fine. But the outcome of the mission is out of his hands, thus the credit should be as well. I mean he made a good choice, but put credit where credit is due. He was sitting in a room watching it on a TV, and HE gets the credit? WTF? At most I would give him a very small amount of credit for his choice to use the seals. But bombing the entire complex would have killed bin Laden as well. So that choice really was like, whatever. We got good intelligence from it, so that was a good choice. Kudos for his choice.

If the president actively tries to go against the recommendations of the men with the boots on the ground and it goes FUBAR, then it's HIS puppy. But if all he says is yea go do that, or go do whatever you think is necessary to accomplish the mission, how in the hell can you blame the president if it goes wrong OR give him credit if it goes right? He's not a war planner. Certainly not a Navy seal. Hell, Obama never served in the military.

So don't use strawmen to argue against me. I will call you on it every time.
Click to expand...

Obama had to make the final decision as to whether to go with it or not. Like it or not, it was on his shoulders. If the operation had failed, he would have received the blame just as well.

So, it doesn't matter whether or not you give Obama the credit - I don't imagine your opinion counts for much. The rest of the world and many Republicans including Cheney, Giuliani, Palin, and Bush (among others) have given Obama kudos for a job well done. Most of us Americans have been waiting for this day, when this devil would be made to pay for his evilness. Sorry that you can't rejoice in it because of your hatred for Obama. We don't really care - we are glad and we thank Obama for not letting us down.
 
mertex said:
Obama had to make the final decision as to whether to go with it or not. Like it or not, it was on his shoulders. If the operation had failed, he would have received the blame just as well.

So, it doesn't matter whether or not you give Obama the credit - I don't imagine your opinion counts for much. The rest of the world and many Republicans including Cheney, Giuliani, Palin, and Bush (among others) have given Obama kudos for a job well done. Most of us Americans have been waiting for this day, when this devil would be made to pay for his evilness. Sorry that you can't rejoice in it because of your hatred for Obama. We don't really care - we are glad and we thank Obama for not letting us down.
Click to expand...

I'm glad bin Laden is dead, but in rejoicing, lets make sure that the people that deserve the credit get it. I hate Obama, yes, can't stand the man, but he did good with saying "yea go get 'em." However, I am disappointed that he wanted to take bin Laden alive. I am sorely disappointed in hearing that.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I wouldn't have blamed him if things had gone wrong. Like I said before, I didn't blame him when he went after Libya and killed civilians in bombings.

Some might say "some people will never give Obama credit for this" and I am one of them, but I am equal, I will never give Bush credit for Saddam. Like that cartoon said, all he did was say "ok, go get him." That doesn't take much. The entire intelligence community, the CIA, the FBI, and all other 3 letter abbreviations that got involved and got this man should be commended. I mean, what if Osama had been shot on Jan 21st, 2009? Who would you have given credit to then?

So on the same token, don't let your LOVE of Obama blind yourself to who really got bin Laden. You tell me don't let my hate for him blind me, well, don't let your love for him blind you. See how that coin flips both ways?

mertex said:
I don't imagine your opinion counts for much.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, your doesn't either!
 
Last edited:
Grant said:
If he was in Pakistan, how could he be in the the hills of Tora Bora?
Click to expand...

I was referring to when he left that area heading towards Pakistan. It's my believe he's been there ever since.

Maybe Bush knew something the rest of us didn't?

And of course they got the revelation of who the couriers were as a result of water boarding. George Bush deserves credit for that.
Click to expand...

Maybe he (GWB) did know something the rest of us didn't concerning OBL while he was in Tora Bora, maybe he didn't. But I say when you have the nation's #1 enemy within your grasps you DON'T let him get away!!

On the issue of the intel gathered from KSM from him being waterboarded...okay...I'll conceed we got lucky on that note. KSM cracked and provided a solid piece of information we could use - the "name" of the courier OBL was using. But I think we could have followed the courier and got OBL even if we didn't know the courier's name. Knowing such certainly made the job easier, no doubt! But we've know OBL has used couriers to get information in and out of his protected area since the Russian/Afghan war. For folks to be acting as if getting the name of the courier just because KSM was waterboarded is some big revelation, so big in fact that the Special-Ops mission couldn't have taken place without the info, is kinda foolhearty to me. It made tracking this guy (courier) alot easier, but I think we could have found OBL without knowing the courier's name. Might have taken longer, but I'm convinced we've have found him because that's kinda what we'd been doing almost from the start - first following OBL's drive* , then his AL Jazeera video couriers.

*Ref source(s): Books - 9/11 Commission Report, Your Government Failed You and Broken Government
 
Hatuey said:
The mental acrobatics you have to do in order to read that sentence and gather that Osama was a pawn of the US are amazing. The rest of your post is just gibberish.
Click to expand...

Great debate tactic. Here, let me try: To everything you just said, NUH UH!
 
dontworrybehappy said:
I'm glad bin Laden is dead, but in rejoicing, lets make sure that the people that deserve the credit get it. I hate Obama, yes, can't stand the man...
Click to expand...

Well, atleast we now know how you really feel. :roll:

...but he did good with saying "yea go get 'em." However, I am disappointed that he wanted to take bin Laden alive. I am sorely disappointed in hearing that.
Click to expand...

Why? I mean, if he were captured alive he'd be made to stand trial for his crimes. Frankly, that's one man I wouldn't have minded if he rotted in Gitmo for the rest of his life!

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I wouldn't have blamed him if things had gone wrong. Like I said before, I didn't blame him when he went after Libya and killed civilians in bombings.

Some might say "some people will never give Obama credit for this" and I am one of them, but I am equal, I will never give Bush credit for Saddam. Like that cartoon said, all he did was say "ok, go get him." That doesn't take much. The entire intelligence community, the CIA, the FBI, and all other 3 letter abbreviations that got involved and got this man should be commended. I mean, what if Osama had been shot on Jan 21st, 2009? Who would you have given credit to then?

So on the same token, don't let your LOVE of Obama blind yourself to who really got bin Laden. You tell me don't let my hate for him blind me, well, don't let your love for him blind you. See how that coin flips both ways?[/QUOTE]

Yours is a twisted brand of logic.

Look, I give credit where credit is due. If folks honestly believe that getting the name of the courier would never have happened and, as such, we'd never have caught OBL, well...all I can say is you're entitled to your opinion. I don't think the name was that crucial in this case, but it turned out to be a good lead. So, I'll give credit that the intel was a solid lead even though I don't care for the method inwhich the information was gathered.

Being a Navy veteran, I will say I am VERY PROUD of my fellow Special Ops shipmates for pulling off a well executed mission. SEAL-TEAM 6 ROCKS!!! WHOOHOO!!! To that, I also give props to the FBI, CIA, the U.S. Navy and the men and women onboard the USS CARL VINCENT, as well as anyone else within the DoD who had a hand in OBL's capture and death. WELL DONE TO YOU ALL!!!

But you have to give much credit to the President for being foresighted enough and for being persuasive enough to do what his two predecessors could not - pull all facets of our counterintelligents teams and special forces together in absolute secret and make them understand that getting OBL was far more important than any of their petty "territorial rivalries" which kept us from getting OBL long ago. Moreover, Pres. Obama didn't seem to be all that concerned for collateral damage which is more than I can say for either Clinton or GWB who were hamstrung by killing innocent civilians throughout their presidencies to get this scumbag!

So, yes! I give tons of credit to our President and Commander-in-Chief for making the call where others did not!
 
Objective Voice said:
I was referring to when he left that area heading towards Pakistan. It's my believe he's been there ever since.
Click to expand...

What you believe is to be true might be at great variance from the facts. Perhaps in a few years we'll know more facts about what actually happened.


Maybe he (GWB) did know something the rest of us didn't concerning OBL while he was in Tora Bora, maybe he didn't. But I say when you have the nation's #1 enemy within your grasps you DON'T let him get away!!
Click to expand...

You don't actually know that he was in anyone's grasp. You still seem to be running with your beliefs.


On the issue of the intel gathered from KSM from him being waterboarded...okay...I'll conceed we got lucky on that note. KSM cracked and provided a solid piece of information we could use - the "name" of the courier OBL was using. But I think we could have followed the courier and got OBL even if we didn't know the courier's name.
Click to expand...

You really needn't concede anything. If the rights of terrorists are more important than the possibility of saving innocent lives then you can stick to that belief. If I am in command I'd use every means at my disposal in order to save the lives of innocents. Booth beliefs are common enough and there is room for both.

Knowing such certainly made the job easier, no doubt! But we've know OBL has used couriers to get information in and out of his protected area since the Russian/Afghan war. For folks to be acting as if getting the name of the courier just because KSM was waterboarded is some big revelation, so big in fact that the Special-Ops mission couldn't have taken place without the info, is kinda foolhearty to me
Click to expand...
.

Those blessed with 20/20 hindsight are often silent during times of crisis.

It made tracking this guy (courier) alot easier, but I think we could have found OBL without knowing the courier's name. Might have taken longer, but I'm convinced we've have found him because that's kinda what we'd been doing almost from the start - first following OBL's drive* , then his AL Jazeera video couriers.
Click to expand...

Yes. it might have taken longer and more innocent people might have died. Are you for taking action when he is within NATO's grasp or are you for taking a bit longer?
 
upsideguy said:
...but refuted by Rumsfeld

Rumsfeld Exclusive: There Was No Waterboarding of Courier Source
Click to expand...

Was it?

Here, in part, is what Rumsfeld said.

“First of all, no one was waterboarded at Guantanamo Bay. That’s a myth that’s been perpetrated around the country by critics".

But that is not saying that waterboarding did not take place. We do know that at least three terrorists were waterboarded and one of them, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, was the one who gave the information about the couriers.

Rumsfeld is being either evasive or disingenuous.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom