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Thread: Osama Bin Laden is dead

  1. #961
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    when asked, the cia director could NOT say eit's played NO role

    given the incendiary politics surrounding torture, he certainly must have wanted to

    but how could he, after what his own ig reported

    obama's turned out to be quite the NEOCON, it appears

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    obama's turned out to be quite the NEOCON, it appears
    And that's a good thing in your book, no? You must be very proud of President Obama.
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    when asked, the cia director could NOT say eit's played NO role

    given the incendiary politics surrounding torture, he certainly must have wanted to

    but how could he, after what his own ig reported

    obama's turned out to be quite the NEOCON, it appears
    Its because the CIA director, unlike many discussing this, understand how intelligence gathering happens and what likely lead into this string of intelligence. Strands began being added to this string of intelligence as far back as 2004 reportedly, and likely from many, many sources. To say with certainty that EIT's played no part in recovering any of the intelligence that added to this string of intelligence would be nearly impossible. Contrary to how some people percieve, this wasn't just one day KSM popped out a name, we took it and a short while later got Osama. The existance of the couriers likely came from multiple lower sensitivity sources, ditto with his allias, and other such thing, with KSM's input likely being the lynchpin to verify it all.

    To say that EIT's definitely contributed to it is foolish and unverifable...but so is saying they most concretely had no effect on it.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    To say that EIT's definitely contributed to it is foolish and unverifable...
    tell it to the inspector general of the cia

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Its because the CIA director, unlike many discussing this, understand how intelligence gathering happens and what likely lead into this string of intelligence. Strands began being added to this string of intelligence as far back as 2004 reportedly, and likely from many, many sources. To say with certainty that EIT's played no part in recovering any of the intelligence that added to this string of intelligence would be nearly impossible. Contrary to how some people percieve, this wasn't just one day KSM popped out a name, we took it and a short while later got Osama. The existance of the couriers likely came from multiple lower sensitivity sources, ditto with his allias, and other such thing, with KSM's input likely being the lynchpin to verify it all.

    To say that EIT's definitely contributed to it is foolish and unverifable...but so is saying they most concretely had no effect on it.
    That's highly doubtful. We're talking about UBL's actual location. That information would have only been intrusted to the very highest levels within AQ. Therefore, the nuggets that were obtained, were gathered from those high level personel. Most of those high level personel were, without a doubt, smacked around a little.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    He is careful to not indicate much of anything. And nowhere does he suggest it is on going. In fact, the courts ahve ruled it can't be ongoing. This stuff was stopped in 2006. If we find it is ongoing, arrests should be made. Instead it is more likely conventional interrorgation techniques had more effect, as linked earlier.
    If it was stopped in 2006...and eit was possibly responsible for UBL's take down....then GWB is entirely to blame, right?
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    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    Well, I guess without any links to prove that you got it 6 times, we will never know, will we? And it is a memo from the Justice Department, unless we have a link showing otherwise, from a reputable source, it can't be refuted.

    But, it seems highly unlikely that CIA officers would be this wimpy.


    It was reported that “CIA officers who subjected themselves to the waterboarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in.”[8] According to the CIA, three prisoners in American custody have been “waterboarded.”[9]

    Waterboarding is Illegal - Washington University Law Review
    lol, right, cuz links are everything. If it ain't on the net, it didn't happen, right?

    ughhhh......
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    What you believe is to be true might be at great variance from the facts. Perhaps in a few years we'll know more facts about what actually happened.
    Fair enough...

    You don't actually know that he was in anyone's grasp. You still seem to be running with your beliefs.
    Beliefs based on atleast two documentaries on OBL and two books I've read ("Return of the Empirial Presidency" and "Your Government Failed You") that state the same thing - OBL was in the hills of Tora Bora and the GW Bush administration for whatever reason let him slip threw the cracks. That's not my belief; it is fact.

    You really needn't concede anything. If the rights of terrorists are more important than the possibility of saving innocent lives then you can stick to that belief. If I am in command I'd use every means at my disposal in order to save the lives of innocents. Booth beliefs are common enough and there is room for both.
    Let's no play the "peace-nik" card here. You didn't read anything I've posted that said terrorist get a pass for their terrorist acts nor that NATO is the "be-all/end-all" of U.S. foriegn policy/military affairs. So, get off that tip. I don't believe terrorist desereve having their Maranda Rights read to them any more than I believe enemy combatants deserve to be treated in the harshest manner imaginable. However, I do believe that if you as a nation sign treaties that condem torture (Re: Geneva Convention) you simply should not practise it. That said, I have no problem with "rendition".

    Those blessed with 20/20 hindsight are often silent during times of crisis.
    I fail to see what this has to do with that portion of my commentary stated above (post #671). Perhaps you can elaborate...

    [Yes. it might have taken longer and more innocent people might have died. Are you for taking action when he is within NATO's grasp or are you for taking a bit longer?
    Again, what does NATO have to do with this or any aspect of the War on Terror where the U.S. military and our counterintelligence is concerned? To answer your questions, I'm always for getting the job done in the most expeditious way possible. To put this in perspective, folks still debate dropping the H-Bomb on Japan...TWICE! I have no problem with it because it forced their unconditional surrender. We've "paid" for it ever since, though. There are always consequences to one's actions whether we can foresee them or not.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Fair enough...



    Beliefs based on atleast two documentaries on OBL and two books I've read ("Return of the Empirial Presidency" and "Your Government Failed You") that state the same thing - OBL was in the hills of Tora Bora and the GW Bush administration for whatever reason let him slip threw the cracks. That's not my belief; it is fact.



    Let's no play the "peace-nik" card here. You didn't read anything I've posted that said terrorist get a pass for their terrorist acts nor that NATO is the "be-all/end-all" of U.S. foriegn policy/military affairs. So, get off that tip. I don't believe terrorist desereve having their Maranda Rights read to them any more than I believe enemy combatants deserve to be treated in the harshest manner imaginable. However, I do believe that if you as a nation sign treaties that condem torture (Re: Geneva Convention) you simply should not practise it. That said, I have no problem with "rendition".



    I fail to see what this has to do with that portion of my commentary stated above (post #671). Perhaps you can elaborate...



    Again, what does NATO have to do with this or any aspect of the War on Terror where the U.S. military and our counterintelligence is concerned? To answer your questions, I'm always for getting the job done in the most expeditious way possible. To put this in perspective, folks still debate dropping the H-Bomb on Japan...TWICE! I have no problem with it because it forced their unconditional surrender. We've "paid" for it ever since, though. There are always consequences to one's actions whether we can foresee them or not.
    That's an opinion, not a fact. There's proof that Bush intentionally, "let him slip threw the cracks".

    What is a fact, is that UBL was seen, on horseback, at Tora Bora about 60 seconds before we carpet bombed the area. If he got out, it was nothing more than luck.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's an opinion, not a fact. There's proof that Bush intentionally, "let him slip threw the cracks".

    What is a fact, is that UBL was seen, on horseback, at Tora Bora about 60 seconds before we carpet bombed the area. If he got out, it was nothing more than luck.
    I believe you meant "There's no proof." Just for clarification.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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