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Thread: Osama Bin Laden is dead

  1. #911
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    For those that have claimed they were water boarded, perhaps they weren't aware that it was different?


    The Secret Justice Department Memo

    Looking at the previously secret August 1, 2002 Justice Department Memo issued only a month before the briefing, you can see it deals with whether waterboarding Abu Zubaydah would amount to torture. The memo was signed by Jay Bybee, the head of the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC), but apparently written by Berkeley law professor John Yoo. The memo says that it is based on the facts that the CIA's acting general counsel John Rizzo gave them.

    The 18-page memo stresses three facts:

    Thousands of US Troops (Navy Seals, Special Operations Forces) have gone through Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape Training (SERE), which includes waterboarding
    Hardly any reports had been received of the trainees suffering subsequent ill effects
    Waterboarding is essentially painless and lasts only "20 to 40 seconds"
    The memo leaves out the following facts:

    The SERE program permitted a trainee to be waterboarded only once or twice. (As stated above, the CIA waterboarded Zubaydah 83 times)
    The SERE program was based on interrogation techniques used by North Korea and Communist China during the Korean War
    The CIA used a harsher waterboarding method than did SERE, applying, according to the CIA Inspector General, "large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose" rather than the "small amount of water [applied] to the cloth in a controlled manner" for SERE trainees
    More important than anything else, the American SERE trainees had volunteered and had to know that they were not going to be killed or seriously harmed. Individuals who are imprisoned have good reason to believe that the detaining authority (the CIA) might kill them, particularly after, among other things: Being hooded, placed in the equivalent of dog crates, repeatedly slammed against "flexible" walls, deprived of sleep while shackled in uncomfortable positions for up to a week at a time, and placed on a liquid diet
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    I have tried to show them that it was different. You do a nice job of spelling out the differences. Thanks.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #912
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ushaditcoming View Post
    Well stated again. Now I'll leave it up to you to try to determine what my political objective really is. My agenda as you suggest. Have I given you any hint so far? I think I've at least shown you that I don't buy into American propaganda all the time. Especially when America provides reason to doubt their propaganda. And you?l What's your agenda. You have provided a hint that it's got something to do with damage control so far. And you don't like my name so you tell me that others won't so I should change it.
    It's not a case of not liking your username, I just think you are in danger of letting your impulse to provoke override your desire to debate. As far as my agenda, well I'm a libertarian socialist. I am critical of US foreign policy in many respects. Ask the Rev, we've butted heads on occasion. My agenda is to maximise rational discussion and minimise posturing and token politics.

    I've tried and failed to get an analytical discussion going on the Osama issue on another thread but had to admit that many, many DP posters are not in any mood to analyse until they've got a little triumphalism and schadenfreude out of their systems... and I respect that actually. Several posters here have lost friends and family at the hands of Bin Laden and his crew, many are or have family members serving in the forces. I'm not about to criticise them for feeling a sense of relief, closure, triumph or satisfaction, much as I might have been totally opposed to the Iraq war and the 'War on Terrorism'.

    To a lot of people, whether they chose it or not, this issue is far more than an internet debate, so however strongly you feel about this issue, show a little restraint and common human understanding rather than just pursuing your intellectual train of thought and damn the consequences. I probably agree with you more than 90% of other people on DP, but there are ways and ways of conducting a debate depending on time and context.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  3. #913
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ushaditcoming View Post
    To begin with you need to realize that your president may not even be in on the truth. He's more of a figurehead than anything important. A figure to talk to the people, nothing much more these days. A political pesona so to speak.

    The move by Obama, if in fact he had anything to do with it is neither gutsy or non-gutsy. You people have come to believe that your president is much more than her really is and he's somehow responsible for a lot more than a politician could ever be responsible for. (and no, I'm not an extreme rightist any more than I'm an extreme leftist) I'm here to help you people understand a little better.

    I don't 'want' to believe on way or another. I'm only being rational and going where the evidence leads me. You Americans should stop wanting something to be and use your heads to determine what is, is. Remember how Clinton knew?
    You've already been informed I'm not American and you've already been informed that AJ isn't censored in the States, yet you continue to believe otherwise. Perhaps aside from preaching you may indulge in a little listening.

    And Obama may have been watching a home made movie of the "assassination"? Look, if its bs he definately knew and everyone else there knew. They would be far more hated than Osama ever was if it came to light. That would be the gutsiest gamble ever for political or financial gain if you ask me.

    But I don't get the impression you're a listener.

  4. #914
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I have tried to show them that it was different. You do a nice job of spelling out the differences. Thanks.


    ahh good you found it.



    good for you.



    So, tell me now, tell me how bad you feel for KSM, I mean after all those 83 times, it led to the guy who led us to Osama.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    So no answer, you have no idea for the time and duration ksm was waterboarded. Thanks for your concession.
    Actually, we do don't we? some 183 times, right? However, it has nothing to do with what we're discussing, so I see no relevence in your question. I suspect it is more diversion. you do like to leap all over the place right?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  6. #916
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    ahh good you found it.



    good for you.



    So, tell me now, tell me how bad you feel for KSM, I mean after all those 83 times, it led to the guy who led us to Osama.
    But it didn't. that's the point. See the link earlier. He did not give it up under torture. We got the information with conventional methods.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #917
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Actually, we do don't we? some 183 times, right? However, it has nothing to do with what we're discussing, so I see no relevence in your question. I suspect it is more diversion. you do like to leap all over the place right?

    I acknowledge, this, last post dood, you score no points by whining after the fact.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    But it didn't. that's the point. See the link earlier. He did not give it up under torture. We got the inofrmation with conventional methods.


    Duh. So if I beat the living crap out of you, for 83 days, and then on the 84th a schoolgirl comes up to you and asks you pretty please, and you give in, it must have been the girl, not the threat of another beatdown. You guys are too much sometimes.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  9. #919
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I acknowledge, this, last post dood, you score no points by whining after the fact.
    no one's whining. you're merely diverting from your mistake. SERE is not equal to waterboarding as it is different. And torture did not get the information that led to OBL's death.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #920
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Duh. So if I beat the living crap out of you, for 83 days, and then on the 84th a schoolgirl comes up to you and asks you pretty please, and you give in, it must have been the girl, not the threat of another beatdown. You guys are too much sometimes.
    it wasn't the next day either. It was months later. There is no logical way to link it to the waterboarding.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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