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Thread: Osama Bin Laden is dead

  1. #901
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ushaditcoming View Post
    I really don't have a horse in your race Ben. I think I've pretty well shown why I suspected that it was censored at least to some degree in your country. Other than that I'm only interested in the truth. Your suggestio of a conspiracy theory on this forum doesn't interest me. Your angle of attack does however subtract a little from your credibility already. You shouldn't let that happen as it only goes to show further that you want to believe but are now in doubt as to whether or not to believe.

    However you want to play it is fine with me!
    I just find it suspicious and distasteful to expect people to run around and report evidence back to you as if there word isn't good enough on something as apolitical as that, almost as much as your username.

    I would be glad if Osama were dead, I don't have the evidence to say he definately has died in the manner stated yet. I'd agree that there's far more room for the inevitable conspiracy theories in this event than there was with 9/11 and I fear a lifetime of reading clutching at straws theorists reservations. I just sincerely doubt Obama would lie about this, whether or not the operation itself was the gutsiest move made by a recent American president, a lie of this magnitude certainly would be.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I've posted them before. Link: The Treatment of Detainees in U.S. Custody





    From your link:




    All of this training sounds like EIT to me.

    And read on:



    there is also this:

    In fact, waterboarding is just the type of torture then Lt. Commander John McCain had to endure at the hands of the North Vietnamese. As a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California I know the waterboard personally and intimately. SERE staff were required undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception. I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school’s interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques used by the US army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What was not mentioned in most articles was that SERE was designed to show how an evil totalitarian, enemy would use torture at the slightest whim. If this is the case, then waterboarding is unquestionably being used as torture technique.

    Naval Leadership: Waterboarding is Torture… Period

    There's much more out there and I've probably linked it all at one time or another. But the point is they are not the same, and waterboarding is torture.



    The techniques used in SERE training can include things
    like stripping students of their clothing, placing them in
    stress positions, putting hoods over their heads, disrupting
    their sleep, treating them like animals, subjecting them to
    loud music and flashing lights, and exposing them to extreme
    temperatures. It can also include face and body slaps, and
    until recently, for some sailors who attended the Navy's SERE
    school, it included waterboarding, which is mock drowning.
    The SERE schools obviously take extreme care to avoid
    injuring our own soldiers. Troops are medically screened to
    make sure that they're fit for the SERE course. Prior to the
    training, each student's physical limitations are carefully
    documented to reduce the chance that the SERE training and the
    use of SERE techniques will cause injury.
    There are explicit limitations on the duration and
    intensity of physical pressures. For example, when
    waterboarding was permitted at the Navy SERE school, the
    instructor manual stated that a maximum of 2 pints of water
    could be used on a student who was being waterboarded, and, if
    a cloth was used to cover a student's face, it could stay in
    place a maximum of 20 seconds.


    How long was KSM waterboarded for?




    And that's funny, I was at the USAF school in Washington, they did it there too...
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    A good possibility exists that McCain never was tortured and he became a songbird in time to prevent it. I won't argue the issue further here, just to bring it up is enough.

    When I was waterboarded it wasn't torture, it was funny. I stuck a rag in my mouth and poured water on it myself. I couldn't stop laughing long enough to take it seriously. You people should stop talking long enough to understand that training in getting waterboarded is not serious. If I could get to waterboard our military quasi-expert friend here he wouldn't think it was funny at all. It would be much different than his play session. Perhaps he's just trying to make some kind of gung-ho tough guy point. I think so!





    And read on:



    there is also this:

    In fact, waterboarding is just the type of torture then Lt. Commander John McCain had to endure at the hands of the North Vietnamese. As a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California I know the waterboard personally and intimately. SERE staff were required undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception. I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school’s interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques used by the US army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What was not mentioned in most articles was that SERE was designed to show how an evil totalitarian, enemy would use torture at the slightest whim. If this is the case, then waterboarding is unquestionably being used as torture technique.

    Naval Leadership: Waterboarding is Torture… Period

    There's much more out there and I've probably linked it all at one time or another. But the point is they are not the same, and waterboarding is torture.[/QUOTE]

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    To those who want to give Bush a whole lot more credit than he deserves in this matter, sorry to burst your bubble:

    May 3, 2011 5:26 PM
    Debate continues over role of waterboarding in gathering bin Laden intel
    Posted by Stephanie Condon
    (Credit: CBS/AP)
    Various accounts of the intelligence gathering that led to the death of Osama bin Laden gave rise to the suggestion on Monday that the mission to kill the al Qaeda leader was successful in part because of the "enhanced interrogation techniques" the U.S. used on some terrorism detainees.

    Since then, however, the White House, some leaders in Congress and former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld have all played down the notion that waterboarding or other "enhanced" techniques aided the mission. At least one congressman, however -- Rep. Peter King (R-N.Y.) -- maintains that waterboarding helped.

    "The fact is that no single piece of information led to the successful mission that occurred on Sunday," White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said in a press briefing Tuesday. Multiple detainees provided insights, Carney said, and those insights were "just a slice of information" intelligence analysts gathered and used to track bin Laden.

    Carney said it was "simply strange... to suggest a piece of information that may or my not have been gathered eight years ago somehow led to a successful mission on Sunday."

    He added that there has been "no change whatsoever" to President Obama's opposition to the use of enhanced interrogation techniques.

    The question of the role such techniques played in this mission arose after the Associated Press reported that it was two key detainees -- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libi -- who gave American officials the nickname of a courier who ultimately led U.S. intelligence officials to bin Laden. The two detainees reportedly gave the information up at foreign CIA "black sites," where waterboarding occurred.

    However, the AP fleshed out its report later in the day. Citing unnamed former officials, the AP wrote, "Mohammed did not discuss al-Kuwaiti while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding... He acknowledged knowing him many months later under standard interrogation."

    Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, backed up the assertion today that waterboarding did not play a role in the sting against bin Laden.
    Debate continues over role of waterboarding in gathering bin Laden intel - Political Hotsheet - CBS News



    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    How long was KSM waterboarded for?




    And that's funny, I was at the USAF school in Washington, they did it there too...
    Again, you ignore the differences and what those who do it say.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    I just find it suspicious and distasteful to expect people to run around and report evidence back to you as if there word isn't good enough on something as apolitical as that, almost as much as your username.

    I would be glad if Osama were dead, I don't have the evidence to say he definately has died in the manner stated yet. I'd agree that there's far more room for the inevitable conspiracy theories in this event than there was with 9/11 and I fear a lifetime of reading clutching at straws theorists reservations. I just sincerely doubt Obama would lie about this, whether or not the operation itself was the gutsiest move made by a recent American president, a lie of this magnitude certainly would be.
    To begin with you need to realize that your president may not even be in on the truth. He's more of a figurehead than anything important. A figure to talk to the people, nothing much more these days. A political pesona so to speak.

    The move by Obama, if in fact he had anything to do with it is neither gutsy or non-gutsy. You people have come to believe that your president is much more than her really is and he's somehow responsible for a lot more than a politician could ever be responsible for. (and no, I'm not an extreme rightist any more than I'm an extreme leftist) I'm here to help you people understand a little better.

    I don't 'want' to believe on way or another. I'm only being rational and going where the evidence leads me. You Americans should stop wanting something to be and use your heads to determine what is, is. Remember how Clinton knew?

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ushaditcoming View Post
    Are you sure you're right about that? Al Jazeera shows a message asking for Americans to demand Al Jazeera. Or at least they did? I'll see if I can find it there.
    I'm absolutely positive of it. It's available in most metro markets and is not in many rural areas. It not being available in rural areas is a product of demand (or lack thereof) not censorship.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    According to those who do it, it's a toned down version that is not equal to actual waterboarding. I've posted this in the past. even the creaters of this program consider waterboarding torture.
    For those that have claimed they were water boarded, perhaps they weren't aware that it was different?


    The Secret Justice Department Memo

    Looking at the previously secret August 1, 2002 Justice Department Memo issued only a month before the briefing, you can see it deals with whether waterboarding Abu Zubaydah would amount to torture. The memo was signed by Jay Bybee, the head of the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC), but apparently written by Berkeley law professor John Yoo. The memo says that it is based on the facts that the CIA's acting general counsel John Rizzo gave them.

    The 18-page memo stresses three facts:

    Thousands of US Troops (Navy Seals, Special Operations Forces) have gone through Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape Training (SERE), which includes waterboarding
    Hardly any reports had been received of the trainees suffering subsequent ill effects
    Waterboarding is essentially painless and lasts only "20 to 40 seconds"
    The memo leaves out the following facts:

    The SERE program permitted a trainee to be waterboarded only once or twice. (As stated above, the CIA waterboarded Zubaydah 83 times)
    The SERE program was based on interrogation techniques used by North Korea and Communist China during the Korean War
    The CIA used a harsher waterboarding method than did SERE, applying, according to the CIA Inspector General, "large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose" rather than the "small amount of water [applied] to the cloth in a controlled manner" for SERE trainees
    More important than anything else, the American SERE trainees had volunteered and had to know that they were not going to be killed or seriously harmed. Individuals who are imprisoned have good reason to believe that the detaining authority (the CIA) might kill them, particularly after, among other things: Being hooded, placed in the equivalent of dog crates, repeatedly slammed against "flexible" walls, deprived of sleep while shackled in uncomfortable positions for up to a week at a time, and placed on a liquid diet
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    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
    --Adlai Stevenson, Politician





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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, you ignore the differences and what those who do it say.
    You do have to admit though, he has a sexy mouth and hairs.

  10. #910
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, you ignore the differences and what those who do it say.

    So no answer, you have no idea for the time and duration ksm was waterboarded. Thanks for your concession.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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