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Thread: Osama Bin Laden is dead

  1. #731
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    omg this "Bush didn't try to catch OBL" BS is getting ridiculous. I will never be Bush's #1 fan (except maybe when it comes to comedic value), but let's drop this bull**** notion that he didn't try to get Osama. He did try, he either just didn't have enough intel to act, or he screwed up (like in Tora Bora). Bush cannot be faulted for lack of trying.
    Yes he can. bush completely blew it on 9/11 when he ignored some 60 emails from FBI agents in Minneapolis tipping him off to the plot. . .

    Agents in the Minneapolis FBI Office immediately confirm the information and seek permission to search by warning FBI Headquarters in over 60 emails and frantic telephone calls that "this is a guy who could fly into the World Trade Center." Although the 'Director of Central Intelligence' is briefed within days with a presentation titled "Islamic Extremist Learns to Fly", neither the FBI or CIA staff does anything until after 9/11.

    Coleen Rowley: Government Whistleblower Protection: the Long Ignored Way to Better Connect the Dots
    And now the latest evidence coming in from Wikileaks states very clearly that bush failed to take aggressive action in Afghanistan when the whereabouts of bin Laden was known w/certainty. . .

    It said: 'Reportedly a high-level meeting was held where six suicide bombers were given orders for an operation in northern Afghanistan. These meetings take place once every month.'

    According to the Guardian, which has received the documents, the report went on: 'The top four people in these meetings are Mullah Omar [the Taliban leader], Osama Bin Laden, Mullah Dadullah and Mullah [Baradar].'

    If true, it could mean forces came close to having the opportunity to wipe out the senior leadership of the Afghan insurgency that has so far claimed the lives of 320 British soldiers.

    Wikileaks reveals Osama Bin Laden was seen at village meetings | Mail Online
    FYI, I am not taking sides, claiming that Democrats are better than Republicans at fighting terrorism. Clearly, Obama has is share of blunders.

    But the evidence to date is that Bush did not try to fight al Queda; he was merely obsessed w/his own agenda of invading Iraq and supposedly re-making the ME.
    Last edited by solletica; 05-04-11 at 02:45 AM.

  2. #732
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Don't think we have any "reformed/born-again liberals" around here.
    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    everyone is born a liberal....some of us grow up.
    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Not if this forum is any indication lol. Some transform into conservatives...but they don't grow up.
    I believe the saying is:

    "If you're 20 and conservative, you have no heart; if you're 40 and liberal, you have no brain."

  3. #733
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Ding dong the bastard's dead, Navy SEALs shot him in the head. Ding gong the sorry bastard's dead

  4. #734
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    The facts are not disputed: the Wikileaks docs state that the CIA obtained the information leading to bin Laden from interrogating one of his couriers caught in 2005 and traced his network of couriers. . .
    That document is dated 2008. So there it is, and if it's true, then bush could've killed bin Laden in 2008. Why didn't he do so?
    Even when the facts are not in dispute, the conclusion drawn from the facts may not all agree and be correct.

    If all the Bush Admin had to do was to Google the guy's nom de guerre to get the guy's home address and then use Facebook to find out where the guy was at that moment, I would say that you may have had a point.

    However, I think that having someone's nickname isn't quite the same as finding then secretly tracking someone who is trying to be sneaky.
    I am willing to believe our IC when they tell us that it took them a while to find the guy even after they acquired his name.

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    Either he was lazy, stupid, or sufficient intelligence was not available, i. e. the trace of the network by the CIA was inadequate.
    Bottom line: if anyone wants to show that waterboarding is effective, then there must be evidence demonstrating its efficiency in capturing and killing dangerous criminals and terrorists.
    Now you're changing the goalposts from "effective" to "efficient."

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    But it's difficult to make a case for torture by stating that the information obtained from it turned out to be actionable 10 years later.
    I am not making a case "for torture." You said that torture didn't work for acquiring information and you offered up a false dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    If the latter is the case, then, in fact, the torture only extracted a tiny piece of the whole puzzle--a seemingly small benefit in exchange for cruelty.
    Showing that torture produces some information is insufficient to show that torture is a best practice.
    To be a best practice, it needs to be compared to other methods based on multiple criteria. Criteria which would include things the amount of time to acquire valid verifiable info as opposed to say volume of info. Otherwise it's sort of an incomplete comparison.
    We don't know how much BS torture generates. That never makes the news. There's never a headline about how people wasted their time and effort tracking down leads from info acquired through EIT to find out that they were bogus. But, that's a valid consideration when evaluating and comparing one method of educing info to another. It's also something that isn't addressed by the "arguments" that people make when they point to an incident and say, "See? Torture works."
    I may be wrong.

  5. #735
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    22 years in the military, working with, in and around, intelligence...you tell me.
    Then you shouldn't have much trouble articulating your case as an expert rather than merely pointing to the laurels on your seat.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Just a reminder to all Bin Laden was not a shooter or even a planner. His demise is important only symbolically. Only
    Iirc, upon joining aQ one does not swear an oath to uphold their ideals, but rather swear an oath of fealty to ObL himself. So, "merely symbolic" can have practical impacts.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I believe the saying is:

    "If you're 20 and conservative, you have no heart; if you're 40 and liberal, you have no brain."
    Yes that's the Churchill quote I had in mind. Personally I think it's bull****. There are plenty on both sides that have no hearts, there are more that have no brains.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  8. #738
    Educating the Ignorant
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by gekaap View Post
    And yet, Bush made no attempt to pursue the matter and to get bin Laden. Which is why Bush deserves no credit for the kill. He gets credit for not caring, for failing to deliver, and that's about it.
    This might qualify as the most retarded post of the year. Perhaps the most retarded ever posted on DP.
    It is 100% pure unadulterated drivel, and even open minded Libs will have to agree it's 100% wrong.

    And you claim to be a "Centrist"!!! ???
    Next time try "Progressive", "Moderate" or "Independent". ROTFLOL.

    TILT/

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    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  9. #739
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I'm a liberal. I'm not bashing Bush. Neither is repeter, who agreed with my post.
    You're just barely a liberal though.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  10. #740
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by gekaap View Post
    I do not believe that is you.
    Well, it is, that's where I work. The guy you're looking at on the page is the boss, not me. Beleive what you want though.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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