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Thread: Osama Bin Laden is dead

  1. #701
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    It's amazing how the right wing fails to recognize this basic fact: if he had the intelligence, why didn't act?

    There are only two possible explanations:

    1) He did not have sufficient intelligence on OBL's whereabouts, because, in fact, the "enhanced interrogation techniques" failed to live up to what he was told.

    2) KSM and the other terrorists did break and tell all, but bush ignored it and just sat there.

    Take your pick
    or:

    3) you have very little understanding of intelligence beyond what you've seen in the movies.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    More than one way of skinning...

    More than one way of skinning...

    I)
    US CODE: Title 18,2340. Definitions
    (1) "torture" means an act committed by a person acting under color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;

    (2) "severe mental pain or suffering" means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting
    from—
    (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
    (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
    (C) the threat of imminent death; or
    (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
    (3) "United States" means the several States of the United States, die District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States,

    II)
    The Bush Admin "understanding" of torture that requires an act to rise "to the level of death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body function" before it can be called torture

    Many acts were no longer considered torture in the Bush Admin's understanding of torture since they didn't rise "to the level of death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body function."

    Electrodes on the genitals- does not rise "to the level of death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body function" and therefore was not torture
    Bamboo under the fingernails- does not rise "to the level of death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body function" and therefore was not torture
    Thumbscrews- do not rise "to the level of death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body function" and therefore were not torture
    Electrical shocks- do not rise "to the level of death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body function" and therefore were not torture
    Red-hot irons- do not rise "to the level of death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body function" and therefore were not torture
    Beatings- do not rise "to the level of death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body function" and therefore were not torture
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    or:

    3) you have very little understanding of intelligence beyond what you've seen in the movies.
    The actions of the bush administration do sound like fiction. . .

    "We got valuable information from a seasoned terrorist becaused we waterboarded him, and that's why 10 years later someone else acted on it."

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    It's amazing how the right wing fails to recognize this basic fact: if he had the intelligence, why didn't act?

    There are only two possible explanations:

    1) He did not have sufficient intelligence on OBL's whereabouts, because, in fact, the "enhanced interrogation techniques" failed to live up to what he was told.

    2) KSM and the other terrorists did break and tell all, but bush ignored it and just sat there.

    Take your pick
    Or one of the many excluded middles. Maybe the info that these folks had was not enough on its own.
    Or one of a gajillion other possibilities.

    Just because you construct a false dilemma doesn't mean that your debate opponent has to choose one of the horns.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    From what I have seen, it's not that it "doesn't work" so much as it's not as reliable or as useful as other methods.

    To me, it's not about whether we got info from these sorts of techniques, but whether or not those are the best choice.

    I can get beer from a bottle using a hammer. It works. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea to get beer from a bottle with a hammer.
    The appropriate analogy in this case is whether it's OK to use the hammer if it causes the beer to pour out 10 years later.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    or:

    3) you have very little understanding of intelligence beyond what you've seen in the movies.
    So, you're the expert then, eh?
    Birthers: God's way of telling Darwin "Take that!"

    We're dealing with master Satanists here. The fact that there's no evidence proves that it's true.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Or one of the many excluded middles. Maybe the info that these folks had was not enough on its own.
    Or one of a gajillion other possibilities.

    Just because you construct a false dilemma doesn't mean that your debate opponent has to choose one of the horns.
    The facts are not disputed: the Wikileaks docs state that the CIA obtained the information leading to bin Laden from interrogating one of his couriers caught in 2005 and traced his network of couriers. . .

    The document says: "In July 2003, detainee received a letter from [Bin Laden's] designated courier, Maulawi Abd al-Khaliq Jan, requesting detainee take on the responsibility of collecting donations, organising travel and distributing funds for families in Pakistan. [Bin Laden] stated detainee would be the official messenger between [Bin Laden] and others in Pakistan. In mid-2003, detainee moved his family to Abbottabad (Pakistan) and worked between Abbottabad and Peshawar."

    Libi was captured in Pakistan in 2005. The CIA says it tracked Bin Laden by tracing the network of couriers, in particular one especially trusted by the al-Qaida leader and who died with himin the US raid on Sunday. The US has not yet named the courier.

    US may have got Osama bin Laden's Abbottabad clue in 2008
    That document is dated 2008. So there it is, and if it's true, then bush could've killed bin Laden in 2008. Why didn't he do so?

    Either he was lazy, stupid, or sufficient intelligence was not available, i. e. the trace of the network by the CIA was inadequate.

    Bottom line: if anyone wants to show that waterboarding is effective, then there must be evidence demonstrating its efficiency in capturing and killing dangerous criminals and terrorists.

    But it's difficult to make a case for torture by stating that the information obtained from it turned out to be actionable 10 years later.

    If the latter is the case, then, in fact, the torture only extracted a tiny piece of the whole puzzle--a seemingly small benefit in exchange for cruelty.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    My only complaint is that they didn't cut his head off. They should've done that.
    NOTICE: I am not a troll, because what I write I believe, and I have no intention of derailing threads or manipulating human nature. I am not a terrorist, because I do not endorse the killing of innocent people, and I am not here to promote violence. I AM HERE ONLY TO EXPRESS MY PERSONAL OPINION AND ENJOY LIVELY DISCUSSION.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by gekaap View Post
    So, you're the expert then, eh?
    22 years in the military, working with, in and around, intelligence...you tell me.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ElCid View Post
    My only complaint is that they didn't cut his head off. They should've done that.
    What good does that really do once he is dead? You have watched too many Rambo movies.

    The Navy SEALS, did a grand superb job of carying out this mission. Am glad Bin Laden was killed avoiding a circus court action for another ten years.
    The computer information they found is probably going to yield 100 times the information they could have gotten from a live Bin Laden.

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