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Thread: Osama Bin Laden is dead

  1. #651
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Perhaps the families of the Japanese soldiers hanged by the United States for waterboarding Americans have a good wrongful death claim against the US

    McCain: Japanese Hanged For Waterboarding - CBS News
    That article clearly says for techniques that included waterbaording...not for waterboarding.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    You just repeated what I said, mac. All I'm saying is that just because you went through it, doesn't make it not torture. There's a pretty strong consensus that it is most definitely a form of torture.
    actually what it does is make it a training technique...innocuous enough to be used in a training environment.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    actually what it does is make it a training technique...innocuous enough to be used in a training environment.
    Alright, let's just say for the sake of argument that waterboarding IS a training technique. What exactly about waterboarding makes it "not torture"?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    That article clearly says for techniques that included waterbaording...not for waterboarding.
    Thank you. Facts do matter.

  5. #655
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Alright, let's just say for the sake of argument that waterboarding IS a training technique. What exactly about waterboarding makes it "not torture"?
    relative severity. Is loosing a ball game or getting hurt in a ball game, torture? How about a reeaaalllyyy long math test?
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    relative severity. Is loosing a ball game or getting hurt in a ball game, torture? How about a reeaaalllyyy long math test?
    So, it's a matter of degree/intensity? Would you agree that on a small scale (like say, 10-30 second), waterboarding would perhaps not be torture, but if done for a longer period of time, it would fairly be classified as torture?

    I've already provided a dictionary definition that classifies waterboarding as torture. Here's what wikipedia has to say:

    Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Waterboarding is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts,[4][34][35] politicians, war veterans,[36][37] intelligence officials,[38] military judges,[39] and human rights organizations.[21][40] David Miliband, then United Kingdom Foreign Secretary, described it as torture on 19 July 2008, and stated "the UK unreservedly condemns the use of torture."[41] Arguments have been put forward that it might not be torture in all cases, or that it is unclear.[16][42][43][44] The U.S. State Department has recognized "submersion of the head in water" as torture in other circumstances, for example, in its 2005 Country Report on Tunisia.[45]

    The United Nations' Report of the Committee Against Torture: Thirty-fifth Session of November 2006, stated that state parties should rescind any interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, that constitutes torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.[46]
    I think there's a pretty solid rationale for classifying waterboarding as torture.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    the facts are now wall to wall

    the HOT tips that got ubl came from ksm and al libi after their sprits were broken by eit's and they became cooperative "to an extraordinary degree"

    Bin Laden kill may reopen CIA interrogation debate | Reuters

    WikiLeaks: Osama bin Laden killed after tip-offs from Guantanamo - Telegraph

    Phone Call by Kuwaiti Courier Led to Bin Laden - ABC News

    congratulations, president obama, for NOT dismantling your predecessor's anti terror tactics, thus allowing our special ops to GET ubl

  8. #658
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, so you would rather we merely asked with a pretty please at the end...
    I don't think that the comment you are replying to means what you're trying to imply it means with the above reply.
    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    ...what when they say go screw yourself?
    j-mac
    I suspect it is assumed from the get-go that the interrogated will say such.



    1) Educing Information
    Interrogation: Science and Art Foundations for the Future
    Intelligence Science Board National Defense Intelligence College
    Washington, DC December 2006

    (in particular this section)
    KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation Review: Observations of an Interrogator – Lessons Learned and Avenues for Further Research

    2) KUBARK [CIA] Counterintelligence Interrogation
    July 1963

    3) Anything about Hanns Scharff
    "hanns scharff" - Google Search

    Hanns Scharff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    So, it's a matter of degree/intensity? Would you agree that on a small scale (like say, 10-30 second), waterboarding would perhaps not be torture, but if done for a longer period of time, it would fairly be classified as torture?

    I've already provided a dictionary definition that classifies waterboarding as torture. Here's what wikipedia has to say:

    Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    I think there's a pretty solid rationale for classifying waterboarding as torture.
    I think if you rode it long enough...a roller coaster could be classed as torture. Or maybe, hanging with your mother-in-law. If done for long enough, anything is torture. Water boarding ain't torture. Electrodes on testicles...torture..., toothpics under fingernails...torture, getting your head sawed off on the internet.......really?

    Reading Amazed's posts......you get the point.
    Last edited by mac; 05-03-11 at 05:48 PM.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  10. #660
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Finding him was the result of a tip -- I'd say the tipster has a good chance...

    According to the news it was high-tech technology that actually led to where he was.

    Osama's bodyguard's Satphone calls led us to hiding place



    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
    --Adlai Stevenson, Politician





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