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Thread: Osama Bin Laden is dead

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    It doesn't matter what we think. It matters what the Arab and Muslim world thinks. An international tribunal with Muslim lawyers prosecuting him would absolutely be a crushing blow to Islamic Radicalism. Only an idiot (and many here) think this can be done by pure military operations. The real war is not on the physical battlefield. It's in the minds of our potential enemies. Israel knows this. It's won almost every war. Has it found real, genuine peace?
    Guess what? I could care less what people that wish to kill us here think. I could care less.
    ~Following My Own Flow~

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    I thought you were talking about Turtle.
    We can dream. haha. Just kidding Turtle if you see this
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    How a Detainee Became An Asset - washingtonpost.com

    I'm not sure it was waterboarding, but he did talk after it was used, and it wasnt used after he started, and kept, talking. What I find interesting is that the supervisors noted he really started talking after harsh interrogation, while KSM contradicts that by saying he lied about information while being tortured.

    Not sure what to conclude about it.
    In my military history class a few years ago, my professor invited a CIA case officer (also a former Marine and former student of the same class) to give a guest lecture to the class. He said it was NEVER okay to torture, and that the "ticking time-bomb scenario" (which is a one-in-a million chance contrived scenario in the first place) and for which many envision torture to be useful could be avoided if one had done their homework the right way up until that point.

    To me, torture represents doing things the convenient and easy way, rather than doing things the right way. It is un-American and goes against our values. The ticking time-bomb scenario is the ONLY scenario for which I would even consider saying that torture is justified. And who's to say that the same intelligence couldn't have been obtained without torture, with a little more time and patience?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    In my military history class a few years ago, my professor invited a CIA case officer (also a former Marine and former student of the same class) to give a guest lecture to the class. He said it was NEVER okay to torture, and that the "ticking time-bomb scenario" (which is a one-in-a million chance contrived scenario in the first place) and for which many envision torture to be useful could be avoided if one had done their homework the right way up until that point.

    To me, torture represents doing things the convenient and easy way, rather than doing things the right way. It is un-American and goes against our values. The ticking time-bomb scenario is the ONLY scenario for which I would even consider saying that torture is justified. And who's to say that the same intelligence couldn't have been obtained without torture, with a little more time and patience?
    I agree with you, however there is still the apparent evidence that waterboarding produced some results, after however long.
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    That's not exactly how the story is being reported... Except on Fox, of course...
    Actually I just heard it on ABC news,
    The KSM waterbording got a nickname of a courier and through intelligence they found out his name and tapped his phone and found the OBL hideout, this all started 4 years ago.

    I work for an ABC Agency in DC and back in 2002-3 we were in a briefing, a general started a slide show and about half way a question was asked about why Iraq and not Afghanistan.. The Generals answer..
    "Iraq is a Battleground we have experience in, we have trained there, we have bases there. Its a location that is Central to the region and we can draw the terrorist there instead of on US Soil. Were fighting a group not a country so we need a battle field that we know, Afghanistan is to hard to get to, Turkey will not allow military sorties from their bases, Pakistan is not trustworthy so Iraq make a perfect location to fight the terrorist" I am paraphrasing of course but it's close.

    As far as water boarding, have you ever seen one done, I have, it is not painful just scary, the person is never submerged, the back of their head is in a bowl of water, like they are getting a hair washing, then a rag is placed over their face and water is poured over the rag give you the sensation that you are going to drown. No big deal.
    not compared to what the enemy does, starvation, beatings and sometimes decapitation.
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    But will you give George Bush the credit for waterboarding the terrorists for the necessary information? If not for him they never would have found the couriers who finally led them to Osama.
    According to news reports, the intel that gave us bin Laden's possible position was aquired in 2010. Bush was already out of office.

    Last edited by danarhea; 05-03-11 at 01:19 AM.
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    According to news reports, the intel that gave us bin Laden's possible position was aquired in 2009. Bush was already out of office.
    You have a link for this dan?

    Edit: thanks, I see it.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 05-03-11 at 01:20 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    You have a link for this dan?
    Yea, and I was wrong. It was 2010 when we aquired this information. Bush had been out of office a year longer than I thought. LOL. Of note, torture was prohibited beginning in 2009, although Bush did takes steps towards eliminating it during his second term.

    I have updated my last post and provided the link. Shame on me for pulling facts out of my ass the first time. LOL.
    Last edited by danarhea; 05-03-11 at 01:27 AM.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by gekaap View Post
    Obama directed our attention to be refocused on finding bin Laden, and made it a top priority for the agencies under his direction --then why did he increase the number of troops in Iraq?
    Obama gave the orders to devote more resources to finding bin Laden than our country had committed toward that end in years links?
    Obama recieved the intel, evaluated the intel, and maked the ultimate decisions on what intel to pursue or not pursue links? Obama did nothing more than be briefed and told what should be done. Any idiot can do that job.
    Obama made the decisions on when to make a military strike, and ordered the military into action And he should get credit for saying, Go get 'em? Well I'll say it next time, so I can get the credit!
    Obama gave the orders to kill bin Laden, as opposed to taking him into custody alive show me any credible proof that Bush wanted bin Laden alive. This is utter bull****.
    I don't give Bush credit for capturing Saddam, nor Obama credit for killing Bin Laden. Obama was briefed on intelligence gathered by people who put their lives in grave danger. You can brief a potplant, but that doesn't make the potplant the one who should get the credit. Obama didn't plan, coordinate or execute any part of that mission. He simply had the authority to make it happen. That doesn't make it his puppy.

    Had it gone terribly wrong, I wouldn't be blaming him, just like I don't blame him when civilians are killed in bombings in Libya, Afghanistan or Iraq. In fact, I'm one of the only posters on this forum that completely supports his efforts in Libya and wishes he would step up the bombing. The only reason I would blame Clinton for the Blackhawk down incident is because he was directly involved in not sending in enough people to get the job done. Obama had nothing to do with that aspect of it. Obama made a gutsy move to use the seals, which was fine. But the outcome of the mission is out of his hands, thus the credit should be as well. I mean he made a good choice, but put credit where credit is due. He was sitting in a room watching it on a TV, and HE gets the credit? WTF? At most I would give him a very small amount of credit for his choice to use the seals. But bombing the entire complex would have killed bin Laden as well. So that choice really was like, whatever. We got good intelligence from it, so that was a good choice. Kudos for his choice.

    If the president actively tries to go against the recommendations of the men with the boots on the ground and it goes FUBAR, then it's HIS puppy. But if all he says is yea go do that, or go do whatever you think is necessary to accomplish the mission, how in the hell can you blame the president if it goes wrong OR give him credit if it goes right? He's not a war planner. Certainly not a Navy seal. Hell, Obama never served in the military.

    So don't use strawmen to argue against me. I will call you on it every time.
    Last edited by dontworrybehappy; 05-03-11 at 01:52 AM.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    10 characters
    Not that I agree with gekaap, but where exactly are you getting that Obama increased the number of troops in Iraq?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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