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Thread: Osama Bin Laden is dead

  1. #401
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I intended to say Desert Fox and the Afghan Airstrike....my bad, same applies though. Clinton was given many oprtunities and refused them...at the last minute, and for questionable reasons he lobbed in some missiles...innefectively.
    You may be right; I'll have to do more research into the issue to get a more complete picture of what went on and arrive at an opinion. For now I will reserve judgment.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  2. #402
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Obama gets credit for the kill, Bush should get credit for facilitating the process that got us to this point.
    "Facilitating the process that got us to this point"? Serious? How did taking our efforts off of Bin Laden and invading a country that had ZERO to do with the attacks on our country on 911, facilitate the process?
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I personally am of the opinion that he would've been ever more glorified and viewed as a martyr if he had been capture alive and processed through our legal system...just look at the fact that we don't even know how to deal with guys like KSM yet.

    DD - it is not the purpose of the death penalty to bring closure to anyone, it is to administer justice. I'm pro-capital punishment, but I realize that there are good reasons to be against it. But the emotional argument is not a good one.
    Perhaps you are correct. As for the DP arguments, one of the arguments that is often raised by pro-DP people is that it brings closure to the family. It is refreshing to hear someone in favor of the death penatly actually recognizing that not only is it rarely, if ever true, it is not really even a good argument.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  4. #404
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    "Facilitating the process that got us to this point"? Serious? How did taking our efforts off of Bin Laden and invading a country that had ZERO to do with the attacks on our country on 911, facilitate the process?
    Do you have any evidence to support the assertion that our involvement in Iraq somehow diverted intelligence sources away from the search for OBL? Again, I'm not an Iraq War supporter and I think it was a stupid and wrong war, but let's be honest here. I believe Bush tried pretty damn hard to find OBL and there were a lot of pressures on him and his administration to do so.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 05-02-11 at 01:18 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  5. #405
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by gekaap View Post
    That's nothing more than an ad hoc hypothesis. Oh, I know, maybe Bush was using top secret government mind wave devices to try to find bin Laden. That theory holds as much weight as yours.

    My "ad hoc hypothesis" is a sound logical assumption. As I stated earlier in the thread, it would serve no purpose to continually update every reporter who asks (constantly) what we know about Bin Laden or his whereabouts. One of Obama's biggest talking points was transparency, and how it was sorely needed after ther Bush years. Wouldn't that purported secrecy lend into the idea of Bush staying silent or creating a false sense of the goings on of the Osama investigation?

    Have you ever watched an inaugural address?



    FTR, I am not an Obama supporter either. I've been praying for a good candidate to come out of the GOP to defeat him in 2012. I, too, believe in giving credit where it is due. I just don't see it due to Bush.
    My "ad hoc hypothesis" is a sound logical assumption. As I stated earlier in the thread, it would serve no purpose to continually update every reporter who asks (constantly) what we know about Bin Laden or his whereabouts. One of Obama's biggest talking points was transparency, and how it was sorely needed after ther Bush years. Wouldn't that purported secrecy lend into the idea of Bush staying silent or creating a false sense of the goings on of the Osama investigation? The government keeps a LOT of information away from the public. If we've learned nothing else through all of these Wikileaks documents we should have learned that much. It isn't above any president in our history to lie or mislead or conceal facts under the pretense of keeping us safe. Given Bush's character, record of action, every official interview he's ever done, and many things he's said since leaving the WH, I find it hard to believe that we can base his level of concern over Osama on one conversation.

    Not sure what inaugeral addresses have to do with my statement; can you please elaborate?
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Perhaps you are correct. As for the DP arguments, one of the arguments that is often raised by pro-DP people is that it brings closure to the family. It is refreshing to hear someone in favor of the death penatly actually recognizing that not only is it rarely, if ever true, it is not really even a good argument.
    If some asshole murdered my friends/family, frankly having them dead would make me feel a hell of a lot better than having them be alive in a cell somewhere, even if it didn't exactly bring me closure, just my humble opinion.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    "Facilitating the process that got us to this point"? Serious? How did taking our efforts off of Bin Laden and invading a country that had ZERO to do with the attacks on our country on 911, facilitate the process?
    If we're going to play that game, how did telling a country holding Osama pending our decision, "that's okay, we don't want him" facilitate his capture/death? He was directly involved in 7 other attacks prior to 9/11 and prior to Bush's presidency that were left unanswered. In fact, when we had a chance to collect him and try him for his crimes against us we said no. He was basically handed to us on a silver platter, evidence in hand, and we said no.

    So go ahead...say Bush deserves nothing..it's your opinion and you have a right to it. But if we're going to base the argument on supposed inaction, let's go ahead and throw Clinton under the bus, too.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  8. #408
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    If we're going to play that game, how did telling a country holding Osama pending our decision, "that's okay, we don't want him" facilitate his capture/death? He was directly involved in 7 other attacks prior to 9/11 and prior to Bush's presidency that were left unanswered. In fact, when we had a chance to collect him and try him for his crimes against us we said no. He was basically handed to us on a silver platter, evidence in hand, and we said no.

    So go ahead...say Bush deserves nothing..it's your opinion and you have a right to it. But if we're going to base the argument on supposed inaction, let's go ahead and throw Clinton under the bus, too.


    Clinton...like GWB did little if anything to go after Bin Ladan....you are absolutely correct. But let's not play games and try to say that anything Bush did facilitated killing Bin Laden. Bush's inital response was appropriate, however, Bush, like most of his career was simply putty in the hands of Cheney and Rumsfield and he lost sight of our goals and became pre-occupied on the wrong course of action.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  9. #409
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Sorry if this is a repeat.....
    CORPORATE GREED AND UNION GREED
    DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS
    DESTROYING THE BEST OF AMERICA ONE DAY AT A TIME

    This is the worst kind of discrimination. The kind against ME! ~ Bender

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Clinton...like GWB did little if anything to go after Bin Ladan....you are absolutely correct. But let's not play games and try to say that anything Bush did facilitated killing Bin Laden. Bush's inital response was appropriate, however, Bush, like most of his career was simply putty in the hands of Cheney and Rumsfield and he lost sight of our goals and became pre-occupied on the wrong course of action.
    So please address the statement made in several articles that part of this military action was a result of intelligence gathered as far back as 2006. Surely if we weren't focused on Osama then such valuable information wouldn't have come to light until later, or not at all. Surely our intelligence would have been focused elsewhere, given Bush's complete lack of care or focus on all things Osama.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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