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Thread: Osama Bin Laden is dead

  1. #1281
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    He did deounce (sic) and stop use of torture. He has tried to close Gitmo.
    yup

    and he kept detention, rendition, the patriot act and wiretapping in place

    of course, that was all before he resorted to assassination

    These are facts
    they sure are

    Again, try to be honest
    LOL!

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    If there is a crime, it is not them I would prosecute. They acted under orders. I'm saying that assassination is illegal. Assassination by definition is killing political leaders. If the SEALS just decided on their own to kill someone, unarmed, they would face charges. Under orders, as I suspect here, I would blame the order giver.

    That said, just as with Bush, I don't believe either will ever face charges. I believe Bush broke the law, and have not argued for impecahment or prosecution. Only agree he broke the law and I would be fine if he were chraged. He won't be. The same is true of Obama.
    Personally, I think Administration had its ass covered on this one. They had all the i's dotted and t's crossed. They could demonstrate that OBL was an imminent threat to the security of this country, and that he was a legitimate military target, armed or not. I think the only situation in which criminal prosecutions would be in order is if OBL had raised his hands up to surrender, and was gunned down anyway.

    Edit: as for whether an airstrike is equivalent to shooting an unarmed man - I think the situations are very similar, I'm actually with Rev on this one. What exactly is the moral/ethical divide between taking out OBL with a 5.56 to the head, and taking out Moussaoui's compound in Iraq with an airstrike when we couldn't even tell whether he was unarmed or not?
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 05-10-11 at 01:48 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  3. #1283
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    so Obama is a murderer? yes or no.




    What if we bombed the compound in pakistan, that would not be "murder" like the assassination to you was?
    You're trying to make it more complicated than it is. I've given you clear examples. If the compound was a miltiary compound it woudl not be the same as shooting an unarmed man.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Personally, I think Administration had its ass covered on this one. They had all the i's dotted and t's crossed. They could demonstrate that OBL was an imminent threat to the security of this country, and that he was a legitimate military target, armed or not. I think the only situation in which criminal prosecutions would be in order is if OBL had raised his hands up to surrender, and was gunned down anyway.

    Edit: as for whether an airstrike is equivalent to shooting an unarmed man - I think the situations are very similar, I'm actually with Rev on this one. What exactly is the moral/ethical divide between taking out OBL with a 5.56 to the head, and taking out Moussaoui's compound in Iraq with an airstrike when we couldn't even tell whether he was unarmed or not?
    They may have had their ass covered. This is why I use word likes if and possible. However, I do think the law forbids assassintion.


    As for the differences, in war, if I know a compound is an emey compound, I can bomb it or invade it. both would be acceptable. But once you have a man, unarmed, and you assassinate him, that is quite different. It oucld be argued the compund was armed, they were frinig back. It was part of the fighting. but once you have him unarmed, you can't make such a claim.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    If there is a crime, it is not them I would prosecute. They acted under orders.
    Agreed

    If you have orders to kill someone, you obey the order because you are acting "in good faith". You have to assume your superiors have a valid reason for issuing an order to terminate someones life.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    They may have had their ass covered. This is why I use word likes if and possible. However, I do think the law forbids assassintion.


    As for the differences, in war, if I know a compound is an emey compound, I can bomb it or invade it. both would be acceptable. But once you have a man, unarmed, and you assassinate him, that is quite different. It oucld be argued the compund was armed, they were frinig back. It was part of the fighting. but once you have him unarmed, you can't make such a claim.
    Apparently bin Laden had an AK and a Makarov pistol within arms reach when the SEALs arrived. In such a situation, it would be entirely possible to "resist" while being unarmed, IMO, and I don't think such a killing would go against the laws of war.

    Alright, I'll give a hypothetical in conventional war terms. If you came across a uniformed enemy, but he was unarmed, would you be obligated to not shoot him just because he was unarmed? Let's say the individual in question refused to surrender and was attempting to flee. Shooting him in the back might not be nice, but I don't think it's illegal.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    If the compound was a miltiary (sic) compound it woudl (sic) not be the same as shooting an unarmed man.
    if?

    you STILL don't know what went down sunday?

    LOL!

    why do you talk so much about opinions when you don't have the facts, chairman?

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Apparently bin Laden had an AK and a Makarov pistol within arms reach when the SEALs arrived. In such a situation, it would be entirely possible to "resist" while being unarmed, IMO, and I don't think such a killing would go against the laws of war.

    Alright, I'll give a hypothetical in conventional war terms. If you came across a uniformed enemy, but he was unarmed, would you be obligated to not shoot him just because he was unarmed? Let's say the individual in question refused to surrender and was attempting to flee. Shooting him in the back might not be nice, but I don't think it's illegal.
    Apparently?????

  9. #1289
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Apparently bin Laden had an AK and a Makarov pistol within arms reach when the SEALs arrived. In such a situation, it would be entirely possible to "resist" while being unarmed, IMO, and I don't think such a killing would go against the laws of war.

    Alright, I'll give a hypothetical in conventional war terms. If you came across a uniformed enemy, but he was unarmed, would you be obligated to not shoot him just because he was unarmed? Let's say the individual in question refused to surrender and was attempting to flee. Shooting him in the back might not be nice, but I don't think it's illegal.
    And that would make a difference. As I said frm the begining, it depends on the details. If as Rev suggests, the man was unarmed, secired, and we shot him, I believe that would be illegal. If the SEALS were ordered to do that, than I would blame the person giving the order, . . .Obama.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I would blame the person giving the order
    few care whom you would or wouldn't blame

    the facts are the facts

    gitmo, detention, wiretapping, assassination...

    barack the killer has become quite the neocon

    he appears to like it, too

    ask al awlaki, an american CITIZEN

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