Page 116 of 146 FirstFirst ... 1666106114115116117118126 ... LastLast
Results 1,151 to 1,160 of 1460

Thread: Osama Bin Laden is dead

  1. #1151
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    No, they are calling it "waterboarding", which is what it is.
    Which is torture and not merely an enhanced interrorgation technique.


    There's that torturous path again. KSM would have spilled his guts weeks earlier if he had to put up with this convoluted highway to nowhere.
    he did not give this information, and frankly we have very little beyond confessions, which torture is good for, to show he gave us anything. Only the claim that he did.

    What law did they break? They were advised at the time that waterboarding was legal, as well it should be.

    And of course it was justified by the subsequent killing of Dustbin Laden. Where is the problem?
    They were wrong, and rather dishonest. We've been through that, but torture is against the law, and waterboarding has always been torture. you might tell those US soliders we court martialed during the VN war it's not torture. They were told otherwise.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #1152
    Ideologically Impure
    Simon W. Moon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Fayettenam
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:04 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    16,941
    Blog Entries
    5

    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    What law did they break? They were advised at the time that waterboarding was legal, as well it should be.
    They received advice about some very specific things. What was cleared was apparently quite different than what happened. The CIA asked the DoJ to look into some behavior of some of the people involved.
    I think that at one point in the IG report it was noted that the differences were so large that comparisons between what was cleared and what actually happened were described as "irrelevant."

    As I noted earlier, I haven't run any OCR on the report yet, so it's kind of tedious to search through it still.
    The IG report goes into detail should you be interested.




    footnote 26

    According to the Chief, Medical Services, OMS was neither consulted nor involved in the initial analysis of the risk and benefits of EITs, nor provided with the OTS report cited in the OLC opinion. In retrospect, based on the OLC extracts of the OTS eport, OMS contends that the reported sophistication of the preliminary EIT review was exaggerated, at least as it related to the waterboard, and the power of this EIT was appreciably overstated in the report. Furthermore, OMS, contends that the expertise of the SERE psychologists/interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant. Consequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe.
    Last edited by Simon W. Moon; 05-06-11 at 06:21 PM. Reason: added footnote from the IG report
    I may be wrong.

  3. #1153
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Canada, Costa Rica
    Last Seen
    05-16-16 @ 09:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,645

    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    Nope. Attacking someone's credentials is not ad hominem.
    Dismissing credentials on a personal whim certainly is. Everyone involved has the "credentials". Your claiming otherwise does not make it so.

    In fact you're using an example of someone who was not directly involved against those who were. That makes no sense whatsoever.

  4. #1154
    Don't Mess With Texas
    mertex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Last Seen
    10-14-14 @ 03:37 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    2,382

    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    my first post in this thread, wapo, august 29, 2009

    but that's not exactly how the sources say it went down

    ksm offered the courier's nom de guerre NOT under eit's but only AFTER "his spirit was broken" by the extremely rough treatment he was subjected to, somewhere in east europe, in the month after his capture

    the "avowed and truculent enemy of the united states," after the eit's, underwent a "transformation," a "reversal"

    he "cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent," he became the cia's "preeminent source on al qaeda"

    it is true beyond ksm the intelligence chain involved many sources, years of time, hundreds of legs, thousands of miles

    and outside of ksm and al libi, also waterboarded, no further eit's were used on the road to ubl in my sources

    but a puzzle as complex as the way ksm was found, without its "preeminent source...."

    it's clear that ksm and al libi played central roles in rooting out the lead

    more couldn't really be said, but no less either

    read the 4 links above, wapo, abc, telegraph and reuters
    Most of the articles written later say the opposite. It seemed odd that the CIA Inspector General would make such a comment, as he would have known what was later reported.

    Surveillance, Not Waterboarding, Led to bin Laden
    By Spencer Ackerman May 3, 2011


    The torture program established by the CIA appears to have played a minor role, at most, in the intelligence effort that eventually lead to Osama bin Laden’s death. From the evidence released so far, electronic surveillance and old-fashioned intel methods were far more important.

    Check out the timeline presented by an Obama administration official on Sunday. The trail starts with al-Qaida detainees captured in the early days of the war on terrorism, when the Bush administration authorized the CIA to use abusive methods like waterboarding to extract information. Detainees identified a courier for bin Laden as a “protégé” of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and a “trusted assistant” of former al-Qaida #3 Abu Faraj al-Libbi. And they gave up the courier’s nom de guerre.

    Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was captured in Pakistan in 2003, with al-Libbi following suit in 2005. A U.S. official tells the Associated Press reports that Mohammed gave up the courier’s nom de guerre, Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, while in one of the CIA’s brutal “black site” prisons. As Marcy Wheeler notes, that’s not the same thing as saying the 183 waterboarding sessions Mohammed received led interrogators to the nom de guerre. But let’s be charitable to them and presume it did. According to the Washington Post, al-Libbi confirmed the alias as well.

    From what we know so far, that’s about all waterboarding yielded for the hunt for al-Kuwaiti.


    The senior administration official told reporters on Sunday that “for years, we were unable to identify his true name or his location.” It took until “four years ago” — 2007, then — for intelligence officials to learn al-Kuwaiti’s real name. By then, President Bush had ceased waterboarding and shuttered the black sites, moving the detainees within them, including Mohammed and al-Libbi, to Guantanamo Bay. In a Monday interview, Donald Rumsfeld said “normal” interrogation techniques were used at Gitmo on those detainees.

    Surveillance, Not Waterboarding, Led to bin Laden | Danger Room | Wired.com



    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
    --Adlai Stevenson, Politician





  5. #1155
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Canada, Costa Rica
    Last Seen
    05-16-16 @ 09:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,645

    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    They received advice about some very specific things. What was cleared was apparently quite different than what happened. The CIA asked the DoJ to look into some behavior of some of the people involved.
    I think that at one point in the IG report it was noted that the differences were so large that comparisons between what was cleared and what actually happened were described as "irrelevant."

    As I noted earlier, I haven't run any OCR on the report yet, so it's kind of tedious to search through it still.
    The IG report goes into detail should you be interested.




    footnote 26

    According to the Chief, Medical Services, OMS was neither consulted nor involved in the initial analysis of the risk and benefits of EITs, nor provided with the OTS report cited in the OLC opinion. In retrospect, based on the OLC extracts of the OTS eport, OMS contends that the reported sophistication of the preliminary EIT review was exaggerated, at least as it related to the waterboard, and the power of this EIT was appreciably overstated in the report. Furthermore, OMS, contends that the expertise of the SERE psychologists/interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant. Consequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe.
    Well I hope the law rules that the CIA can waterboard terrorists in order to protect the American people. If they cant it puts them at a huge disadvantage in the WOT, and the terrorists know it. In fact KSM's attitude was quite relaxed when he first underwent interrogation, claiming he wanted a lawyer before he answered any questions.

    The US has to make a decision whether it is serious in this WOT or not and what sort of value they would place on American lives versus that of the terrorists.

  6. #1156
    Don't Mess With Texas
    mertex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Last Seen
    10-14-14 @ 03:37 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    2,382

    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I never said that is wasn't unpleasant....I said it causes no physical harm, therefore it's not torture.
    Oh, and your opinion is supposed to override the opinion of experts and the law?

    [B]The United States has enacted statutes prohibiting torture[/B] and cruel or inhuman treatment. It is these statutes which make waterboarding illegal.[22] The four principal statutes which Congress has adopted to implement the provisions of the foregoing treaties are the Torture Act,[23] the War Crimes Act,[24],and the laws entitled “Prohibition on Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment of Persons Under Custody or Control of the United States Government”[25] and “Additional Prohibition on Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.”[26] The first two statutes are criminal laws while the latter two statutes extend civil rights to any person in the custody of the United States anywhere in the world.

    Waterboarding is Illegal - Washington University Law Review



    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
    --Adlai Stevenson, Politician





  7. #1157
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Canada, Costa Rica
    Last Seen
    05-16-16 @ 09:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,645

    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    Most of the articles written later say the opposite. It seemed odd that the CIA Inspector General would make such a comment, as he would have known what was later reported.

    Surveillance, Not Waterboarding, Led to bin Laden
    By Spencer Ackerman May 3, 2011


    The torture program established by the CIA appears to have played a minor role, at most, in the intelligence effort that eventually lead to Osama bin Laden’s death. From the evidence released so far, electronic surveillance and old-fashioned intel methods were far more important.

    Check out the timeline presented by an Obama administration official on Sunday. The trail starts with al-Qaida detainees captured in the early days of the war on terrorism, when the Bush administration authorized the CIA to use abusive methods like waterboarding to extract information. Detainees identified a courier for bin Laden as a “protégé” of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and a “trusted assistant” of former al-Qaida #3 Abu Faraj al-Libbi. And they gave up the courier’s nom de guerre.

    Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was captured in Pakistan in 2003, with al-Libbi following suit in 2005. A U.S. official tells the Associated Press reports that Mohammed gave up the courier’s nom de guerre, Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, while in one of the CIA’s brutal “black site” prisons. As Marcy Wheeler notes, that’s not the same thing as saying the 183 waterboarding sessions Mohammed received led interrogators to the nom de guerre. But let’s be charitable to them and presume it did. According to the Washington Post, al-Libbi confirmed the alias as well.

    From what we know so far, that’s about all waterboarding yielded for the hunt for al-Kuwaiti.


    The senior administration official told reporters on Sunday that “for years, we were unable to identify his true name or his location.” It took until “four years ago” — 2007, then — for intelligence officials to learn al-Kuwaiti’s real name. By then, President Bush had ceased waterboarding and shuttered the black sites, moving the detainees within them, including Mohammed and al-Libbi, to Guantanamo Bay. In a Monday interview, Donald Rumsfeld said “normal” interrogation techniques were used at Gitmo on those detainees.

    Surveillance, Not Waterboarding, Led to bin Laden | Danger Room | Wired.com
    I can't find Spencer Ackerman's name anywhere in the list of CIA officials.

    Would you mind sending a link regarding his professional expertise and his CIA involvement?

  8. #1158
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Well I hope the law rules that the CIA can waterboard terrorists in order to protect the American people. If they cant it puts them at a huge disadvantage in the WOT, and the terrorists know it. In fact KSM's attitude was quite relaxed when he first underwent interrogation, claiming he wanted a lawyer before he answered any questions.

    The US has to make a decision whether it is serious in this WOT or not and what sort of value they would place on American lives versus that of the terrorists.
    The disadvantage would be to waterboard. Largely torture is best for getting confessions, from weven the innocent, but not for information gathering. Torture didn't get us the information. More traditioanl forms of interrogation and work did.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #1159
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Seen
    05-16-15 @ 02:32 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,537

    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    From what we know so far, that’s about all waterboarding yielded for the hunt for al-Kuwaiti.
    that's pretty much the way it went down, according to all accounts i've come across

    except that ksm "cooperated to an extradordinary extent" and became langley's "preeminent source," conducting "terrorist tutorials," only "after his spirit was broken" with very harsh eit's in europe

    "ksm was an unparalleled source in deciphering aq's strategic doctrine, key operatives and likely targets, including describing in considerable detail the traits and profiles that aq sought in western operatives and how the terrorist organization might conduct surveillance in the us"

    "cross-referencing material from different detainees and leveraging information from one to extract more detail from another, the cia and fbi went on to round up operatives both in the us and abroad "

    "detainees in mid 2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals---many of whom we had never heard of before---that aq deemed suitable for western operations"

    "according to the cia summary"

    and tho ghul and al libi were not waterboarded, they were eit'd

    one of the sources linked above says that al libi was food deprived and stripped naked because he loved to eat and he was personally very modest

    it is what it is

    and it aint just eit's

    the maintenance of gitmo, the detention of suspects, the warrantless wiretapping of phone calls to al kuwaiti...

    they all led up to this ASSASSINATION

    americans are overwhelmingly grateful to president obama for not dismantling the methods of his predecessor, allowing our agents and soldiers to get ubl

  10. #1160
    Sage
    lpast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Fla
    Last Seen
    05-21-16 @ 10:12 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    13,565

    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    that's pretty much the way it went down, according to all accounts i've come across

    except that ksm "cooperated to an extradordinary extent" and became langley's "preeminent source," conducting "terrorist tutorials," only "after his spirit was broken" with very harsh eit's in europe

    "ksm was an unparalleled source in deciphering aq's strategic doctrine, key operatives and likely targets, including describing in considerable detail the traits and profiles that aq sought in western operatives and how the terrorist organization might conduct surveillance in the us"

    "cross-referencing material from different detainees and leveraging information from one to extract more detail from another, the cia and fbi went on to round up operatives both in the us and abroad "

    "detainees in mid 2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals---many of whom we had never heard of before---that aq deemed suitable for western operations"

    "according to the cia summary"

    and tho ghul and al libi were not waterboarded, they were eit'd

    one of the sources linked above says that al libi was food deprived and stripped naked because he loved to eat and he was personally very modest

    it is what it is

    and it aint just eit's

    the maintenance of gitmo, the detention of suspects, the warrantless wiretapping of phone calls to al kuwaiti...

    they all led up to this ASSASSINATION

    americans are overwhelmingly grateful to president obama for not dismantling the methods of his predecessor, allowing our agents and soldiers to get ubl
    I agree with this entire post...all ive read says the same thing

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •