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Thread: Osama Bin Laden is dead

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You will be them. That's the part you just won't get.

    You are defeating yourselves, and they know it. You've already abandoned a major part of your constitution and then try to make it look like a victory. Nobody is fooled by this.
    I guess I really am not following you. If we adopt their tactics, use their standards, then there really wouldn't be much difference. I certainly think we've come far too close without any real justification to their standard than we should. But we are not yet them.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That is a common misconception.
    If it's a misconception it's one that's held in professional circles. The IG report that's so under discussion repeats the assertion. The KUBARK manual warns against about it. And many other sources offer the same caution.

    So even if it is a misconception, it's one that's held and reported by the people in the Intelligence Community.

    To be honest, I think you are more likely to be mistaken about what changes EITs make to detainees' reporting than they are.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    If we adopt their tactics, use their standards, then there really wouldn't be much difference.
    Hmmm....we executed UBL. We are not that different

    Check this out

    They have killed your fellow Americans as well as your close personal friends, as a result you exist in a condition where you are looking for any ****ing excuse no matter how minor that could be used as justification for the use of deadly force and when that justification presents itself you commit the wholesale destruction of everyone that could possibly be connected with your razer thin paper justification.

    Whats wrong with that?

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Panetta said that the waterboard yielded vital information?
    Yes, Rumsfeld, Tenet, Rodriguez, Hayden, Hadley and Pinetta all said it worked.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Hmmm....we executed UBL. We are not that different

    Check this out

    They have killed your fellow Americans as well as your close personal friends, as a result you exist in a condition where you are looking for any ****ing excuse no matter how minor that could be used as justification for the use of deadly force and when that justification presents itself you commit the wholesale destruction of everyone that could possibly be connected with your razer thin paper justification.

    Whats wrong with that?
    Was there a firefight? Makes a difference. Still, that would not be equl to our enemy, just closer than i prefer (as I said), and not equal to torture and other more long lasting and invasive efforts.

    As for justification, I really haven't commented on that much at all. The conversation has been on two fronts: 1) is he really dead (deathers) and 2) Did torture get the information and is torture justified. I have not entered into the deadly force conversation, if there has even been one, at all.

    However, I would say it would depend on what happened. If they went with no other intent than to assisinate hime, then I would agree that is wrong. If they went in to get him and in the course of a firefight killed him, I would have no real problem with that.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yes, Rumsfeld, Tenet, Rodriguez, Hayden, Hadley and Pinetta all said it worked.
    Without providing any evidence at all.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I guess I really am not following you. If we adopt their tactics, use their standards, then there really wouldn't be much difference. I certainly think we've come far too close without any real justification to their standard than we should. But we are not yet them.
    Who is suggesting that Americans become terrorists and begin planting explosions on public transportation systems? Do you really have any idea what you are saying here?

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Without providing any evidence at all.
    Evidence? They've all said so.

    I can't be responsible because you don't know what your own leaders are saying. Become more aware of the reports and then you can perhaps qualify to become involved in this debate.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Evidence? They've all said so.

    I can't be responsible because you don't know what your own leaders are saying. Become more aware of the reports and then you can perhaps qualify to become involved in this debate.
    When you are a former Sec Def, you don't have to provide evidence. If Obama said EIT works, you think Boo would question it? Of course not.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Evidence? They've all said so.

    I can't be responsible because you don't know what your own leaders are saying. Become more aware of the reports and then you can perhaps qualify to become involved in this debate.
    Saying so is not evidence. Seriously. Each time they've tried to give an example it has proven false. They said, but it wasn't true. You need more than they said so. You need to show that they what they say is actually true. Example. Cheney said torture of KSM proveded intel stopped the plot for a second 9/11. Trouble with that was that we stopped the plot before we even captured KSM. Today some are saying we got the intel that led to the death of OBL, yet that is possible as we stopped those techniques long before we got the intel.

    because of this track record of failing to support what they say, there is no reason to accept claims that torture gave us anything, let alone anything we couldn't have gotten by other means.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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