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Thread: Osama Bin Laden is dead

  1. #1111
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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I posted a link wherein he is extremely critical of everything the US military does, including its obvious successes.
    1st) To be honest, I was mistaken and though that was what you were railing against.
    2nd) the article you linked to is not accurately described as "wherein he is extremely critical of everything the US military does, including its obvious successes."

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    He's the go-to guy for anyone who wants a quote critical of the US Military. You may as well ask Al Q their opinion.
    Calling him names isn't a very strong argument imho. ymmv
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    Cite the source for that statement
    How a Detainee Became An Asset - washingtonpost.com

    how could be wiretapping have been relevant?
    Phone Call by Kuwaiti Courier Led to Bin Laden - ABC News

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    So true. Before long we'll be giving up our American ideals and acting like them--attacking civilians, disregarding the laws of our land and cultural heritage, and things like that. There will even be some among us who try to cajole us into behaving as they do, claiming that it is a more 'manly' way, that it is a more safe way.
    During a war we have to be play a tougher game of hardball than the enemy, in order to protect our nation and our citizens. To do otherwise and knowingly cost American lives would be immoral.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    During a war we have to be play a tougher game of hardball than the enemy, in order to protect our nation and our citizens.
    Perhaps. But it's better to play smartball. If smartball requires us to do some unpleasant things, then so be it. But doing unpleasant things when we can't justify it by the utility of the unpleasant things is merely counter-productive.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    To do otherwise and knowingly cost American lives would be immoral.
    On that basis, since it is a very real possibility that EITs waste valuable time and resources, it is immoral to engage in them.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Perhaps. But it's better to play smartball. If smartball requires us to do some unpleasant things, then so be it. But doing unpleasant things when we can't justify it by the utility of the unpleasant things is merely counter-productive.
    On that basis, since it is a very real possibility that EITs waste valuable time and resources, it is immoral to engage in them.
    It goes without saying that when we do ugly things, that there should be an effective result and we shouldn't conduct such operations, just to be mean. However, if the time comes for such action, we are duty bound to perform them.

    On that basis, since it is a very real possibility that EITs waste valuable time and resources, it is immoral to engage in them.
    We have thousands of years of history to prove that torture works.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    We have thousands of years of history to prove that torture works.
    That's not enough. EITs are in competition with other methods. It has to work better than other methods for it to be justified.

    As has been noted, EITs and torture have a tendency to increase the volume of info from detainees, but not necessarily the quality of information.
    It has also been noted that chasing down false leads eats up resources and man-power.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    That's not enough. EITs are in competition with other methods. It has to work better than other methods for it to be justified.
    EIT's are thousands of years old. If it was less effective than other methods (whatever that means) someone would have figured it out several thousand years ago.

    As has been noted, EITs and torture have a tendency to increase the volume of info from detainees, but not necessarily the quality of information.
    It has also been noted that chasing down false leads eats up resources and man-power.
    What makes you think that putting a prisoner up in a 4 star prison cell and giving him a Coke and a smile is going to actually accomplish anything. Interrogating a prisoner is nothing more than coersion. Some prisoners have to be smacked around a little to be coerced into telling what they know. Of course EIT/torture isn't the Alpha and Omega of intel gathering, however it does have it's place in the grand scheme and in the right scenario will be the most effective method.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    EIT's are thousands of years old. If it was less effective than other methods (whatever that means) someone would have figured it out several thousand years ago.
    It has been figured out.
    1) Educing Information
    Interrogation: Science and Art Foundations for the Future
    Intelligence Science Board National Defense Intelligence College
    Washington, DC December 2006

    (in particular this section)
    KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation Review: Observations of an Interrogator Lessons Learned and Avenues for Further Research

    2) KUBARK [CIA] Counterintelligence Interrogation
    July 1963

    3) Anything about Hanns Scharff
    "hanns scharff" - Google Search

    Hanns Scharff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What makes you think that putting a prisoner up in a 4 star prison cell and giving him a Coke and a smile is going to actually accomplish anything.
    What makes you think I would want to do this?
    If you have to make up my argument for me, you should think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Interrogating a prisoner is nothing more than coersion.
    Actually, trickery is quite effective I have read.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    ... and in the right scenario will be the most effective method.
    If this is true, then it so be it. However, it has yet to be demonstrated that it's more effective.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    1st) To be honest, I was mistaken and though that was what you were railing against.
    2nd) the article you linked to is not accurately described as "wherein he is extremely critical of everything the US military does, including its obvious successes."

    Calling him names isn't a very strong argument imho. ymmv
    I think if you read down, unless i gave the wrong link, he was critical of everything te US Military did and does. There are no exceptions.

    What names did i call him? I just think he is an unreliable source, and indeed he is. There is no end to the number of people who will complain about the US Military, and often with justification, but this guy is a serial complainer and obviously harbors a beef of some sort. Or just likes the publicity.

    He also wasn't involved and those who were directly involved says water boarding worked. And it obviously didn't do any long term damage because KSM is still around today.

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    Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    That's not enough. EITs are in competition with other methods. It has to work better than other methods for it to be justified.

    As has been noted, EITs and torture have a tendency to increase the volume of info from detainees, but not necessarily the quality of information.
    It has also been noted that chasing down false leads eats up resources and man-power.
    That is a common misconception. The CIA, as in this case, asks questions they know the answers to, as part of the interrogation process. if they lie or contradict another terrorist they will waterboard again until the truth comes out. Once the terrorist starts to talk freely there is seldom any need for further waterboarding.

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