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Thread: On road to surplus, U.S. detoured into debt

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    Re: On road to surplus, U.S. detoured into debt

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Actually I didn't notice your post.

    Lets see.

    Hrm, your point does not address any raised in the article, so



    I never said that they didn't. For example, I am against the Iraq war and I believe the money we spent there was wasted. Both parties voted for it. However, since you have accused me of being partisan without actually examining my stance, there is no reason for me to even pay attention to that aspect of your argument. Going "its both parties fault and your too partisan to see that" to everyone seems pretty much to be a reflex for you. Try actually examining whats in front of you.

    Over and above the spending, the point is still that we are missing a ton of revenue because of the tax cuts (which again both parties voted for which I will mention for your sake)
    Mega...Ive stated several times that the reason I left the republican party is because of Bush's spending. I personally AGREE with us going to war...I dont think that is what put us into the economic nightmare we are in. I disagree very much with our postwar ops-I think that has contributed to the problem, as has Obama's "choice" to maintain whatever it is we are doing there. I dont think we should have had the tax cuts and spending increases...Ive always said that. I think ultimately the government should be mandated to be fiscally accountable for every dollar they spend. I think education spending is inane. Its poorly managed. I think medicare and medicaid spending is poorly managed. Across the board there are spending cuts that should be made and programs that should never have been instituted at a federal level in the first place. It cant be sustained. We have a 14.5 trillion dollar debt, 10% new unemployment claim rates (with who knows how high actual unemployment rates), the housing market is still in the toilet, foreign investors government our debt, and many other factors that PROVE we cant sustain the spending. We have partisan politicians squabbling over pennies and people taking sides over the politicians. If you can see anything redeemable in EITHER side, more power to you because I cant. The social spending cripples capable people and prevent resources from reaching people that are truly in need.

    This problem we face will either have citizens demanding of their elected representatives REAL solutions, or will continue to be ignored by the same mindless partisan squabbles that enabled them to put us here in the first place. The article and thread are emblematic of the problem.

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    Re: On road to surplus, U.S. detoured into debt

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Mega...Ive stated several times that the reason I left the republican party is because of Bush's spending. I personally AGREE with us going to war...I dont think that is what put us into the economic nightmare we are in. I disagree very much with our postwar ops-I think that has contributed to the problem, as has Obama's "choice" to maintain whatever it is we are doing there. I dont think we should have had the tax cuts and spending increases...Ive always said that. I think ultimately the government should be mandated to be fiscally accountable for every dollar they spend. I think education spending is inane. Its poorly managed. I think medicare and medicaid spending is poorly managed. Across the board there are spending cuts that should be made and programs that should never have been instituted at a federal level in the first place. It cant be sustained. We have a 14.5 trillion dollar debt, 10% new unemployment claim rates (with who knows how high actual unemployment rates), the housing market is still in the toilet, foreign investors government our debt, and many other factors that PROVE we cant sustain the spending. We have partisan politicians squabbling over pennies and people taking sides over the politicians. If you can see anything redeemable in EITHER side, more power to you because I cant. The social spending cripples capable people and prevent resources from reaching people that are truly in need.

    This problem we face will either have citizens demanding of their elected representatives REAL solutions, or will continue to be ignored by the same mindless partisan squabbles that enabled them to put us here in the first place. The article and thread are emblematic of the problem.
    We have multiple problems and those problems are different types of problems, however, they are compounding to make the sum of the problems greater than the individual problems. We have a problem with our debt, that is fueled in part by our economy, in part by our spending, and in part by our tax structure. We have a bad economy, partially because of deregulation and malfeasence in the private sector, however, it is compounding other issues. Its like a horrible game of pick up sticks, where it seems like every stick will cause another stick to move. It seems overwhelming.

    However, even though its one big mess, it does not (and should not) prevent us from looking at individual pieces of the mess and discussing those things individually, trying to find where we went wrong, and proposing a corrective action, which is what I am attempting to do with this thread. That combined with that fact that I am quite sure everyone wants a REAL solution, but we disagree what that real solution should be, leading to the gridlock. We all think our solution is the correct one, so simply going "we need real solutions" does not really cut it. All you are doing is pretending to be above the fray, so you don't get **** on you like the rest of us do when we discuss actual issues.

    I am sorry you are fed up with the whole thing, however, going "Everyone sucks!" does nothing to help.

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    Re: On road to surplus, U.S. detoured into debt

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    We have multiple problems and those problems are different types of problems, however, they are compounding to make the sum of the problems greater than the individual problems. We have a problem with our debt, that is fueled in part by our economy, in part by our spending, and in part by our tax structure. We have a bad economy, partially because of deregulation and malfeasence in the private sector, however, it is compounding other issues. Its like a horrible game of pick up sticks, where it seems like every stick will cause another stick to move. It seems overwhelming.

    However, even though its one big mess, it does not (and should not) prevent us from looking at individual pieces of the mess and discussing those things individually, trying to find where we went wrong, and proposing a corrective action, which is what I am attempting to do with this thread. That combined with that fact that I am quite sure everyone wants a REAL solution, but we disagree what that real solution should be, leading to the gridlock. We all think our solution is the correct one, so simply going "we need real solutions" does not really cut it. All you are doing is pretending to be above the fray, so you don't get **** on you like the rest of us do when we discuss actual issues.

    I am sorry you are fed up with the whole thing, however, going "Everyone sucks!" does nothing to help.
    Everyone DOES suck...and they do because they can...and a realistic solution will not require an either or solution. Massive spending cuts are needed. We didnt not tax ourselves into a 14.5 trillion dollar hole, we spent ourselves into that hole. We did it willingly and willfully. Today we have people still kicking and stomping and maintaining that we cant cut union contracts, we cant cut social spending, we cant cut M2, we cant cut defense...we cant cut anything. We had a congress that just threw up their hands and didnt even bother voting on an operating budget. Which means solution be is then in the bucket...just raise taxes. The problem is we didnt raise enough taxes...THATS the ticket. Right?

    Government SHOULD be responsive to the country's needs...and it should do so...well..responsibly. If money was needed to rebuild not just the city of New Orleans but a significant portion of the Gulf Coast, then it should have been spent...and taxes should have been raised accordingly. If money was needed to fight a war, then it should have been spent...and taxes raised accordingly. Demanding fiscal accountability of our representatives makes us invested in the outcomes and dollars spent. As it is...47% of the people dont rightly care, because the concept of 'taxes' means absolutely nothing to them. They arent invested in the expense side...merely the draining of the resource side.

    Go back to your OP and the article. Its crap. Its not an either or problem. Never has been, never will be.

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    Re: On road to surplus, U.S. detoured into debt

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I agree, economic conditions have certainly had an effect in recent years.
    Look back at what happened from 2001 to 2003. You saw unemployment jump from 4% to 6% together with a bear market in stocks. This had a cumulative effect on tax revenue. I think this destruction of wealth was the primary contributing factor to the decline in tax revenue as revenue afterwards grew to the point where 2001 spending levels would have put us in the black in 2007.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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    Re: On road to surplus, U.S. detoured into debt

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    So, yes it is a revenue problem, despite what so many here want to believe. Instead of gutting our society, like what paul ryan wants to do, we should just go back to our old tax rates, which would take care of most, if not all, of the problem.
    It's hard to imagine intelligent people believing this nonsense.

    That theory will only work if we go back to the same spending levels and that will never happen until 0bama is out of office. It may be too late already.

    0bama's and Democrats spending, as well as Bush's and the Republicans, is the problem.

    We will never tax ourselves out of the problems caused by reckless spending increases.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: On road to surplus, U.S. detoured into debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Look back at what happened from 2001 to 2003. You saw unemployment jump from 4% to 6% together with a bear market in stocks. This had a cumulative effect on tax revenue. I think this destruction of wealth was the primary contributing factor to the decline in tax revenue as revenue afterwards grew to the point where 2001 spending levels would have put us in the black in 2007.
    I am pretty sure a recently released CBO analysis has already considered this.

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    Re: On road to surplus, U.S. detoured into debt

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I am pretty sure a recently released CBO analysis has already considered this.
    Did it include this?:



    Even at the peak revenue levels under Clinton Obama's budgetary spending would still put us solidly in the red proportionately, which is not something you can even say of Bush's spending.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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    Re: On road to surplus, U.S. detoured into debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Did it include this?:



    Even at the peak revenue levels under Clinton Obama's budgetary spending would still put us solidly in the red proportionately, which is not something you can even say of Bush's spending.
    That graph tracks current revenue levels, not what the projection of what they would be if tax rates were different.

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    Re: On road to surplus, U.S. detoured into debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Even at the peak revenue levels under Clinton Obama's budgetary spending would still put us solidly in the red proportionately, which is not something you can even say of Bush's spending.
    Are you suggesting that 0bama's fiscal policies will balance the budget?
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: On road to surplus, U.S. detoured into debt

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    That graph tracks current revenue levels, not what the projection of what they would be if tax rates were different.
    I am aware of that, but look at the revenue levels compared to before the Bush tax cuts and look at the expenses Obama has made so far. You would have to be deep in the kool-aid to think simply lifting the Bush tax cuts will have any serious impact without major cuts to Obama's spending.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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