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Wal-Mart: Our shoppers are 'running out of money'

:shrug: the effective tax rate for the poor under the Fair Tax is less than it is under the current system. not only does the prebate remove taxation on all spending up to the poverty level (which of course makes up a larger percentage of their income), but it gets rid of the regressive payroll tax. That's one of the many reasons I would favor it - much like wal-mart; it's good for the poor.


Gotta love the way you spin it cpwill lol...your good I admit it....now admit the fair tax utterly shafts teh middle class and gives the rich A HUGE WINDFALL...
 
Maybe they should pay down their debt. Remember when Bush gave the surplus back and ended up doubling the debt.

:lamo

this is wonderful. this is really the best ya'll can come up with.

compared to Obama trying to defend trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see and a disastrous "stimulus" package matched in it's damage only by Obamacare (and the publics rabid opposition to the individual mandate), this is going to be smooth sailing.

:lol: ya'll might as well go back to complaining that Daniels is short....
 
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Gotta love the way you spin it cpwill lol...your good I admit it....now admit the fair tax utterly shafts teh middle class and gives the rich A HUGE WINDFALL...

it only "shafts" those who choose to borrow to consume. which I am fine with, as that is dangeorus and stupid behavior that should be discouraged.
 
You do know gas was higher under Bush, right?
You do know the housing bubble burst under Bush, right
You do know the recession began under Bush, right?
You do know Bush doubled the debt, right?
To claim the republicans are somehow better than the democrats is ridiculous
 
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:lamo

this is wonderful. this is really the best ya'll can come up with.

compared to Obama trying to defend trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see and a disastrous "stimulus" package matched in it's damage only by Obamacare (and the publics rabid opposition to the individual mandate), this is going to be smooth sailing.

:lol: ya'll might as well go back to complaining that Daniels is short....

The trillion dollar deficits began under Bush's '09 budget year. Remember? We shall see how Indiana does in a year or so with it's high unemployment rate.
The stimulus was not a disaster. It kept us from falling into a depression worse than the Great One.
 
You do know gas was higher under Bush, right?
You do know the housing bubble burst under Bush, right
You do know the recession began under Bush, right?
You do know Bush doubled the debt, right?
To claim the republicans are somehow better than the democrats is ridiculous

not really.

1. spending - as per the Constitution - comes from the House. Democrats took over the House in 2007. starting in 2008 is when we began to see our massive deficits. Obama has added more in three years to the debt than Bush did in 8, and if you compare the Democrat House numbers to the Republican House numbers, the stats are even further away than that. Republicans not good, Democrats - much worse.
2. The housing market absolutely bubbled and burst under Bush's watch. Both Republicans and Democrats encouraged it while it was growing. A minority of Republicans attempted to do something about it, but were effectively shut down. Bush attempted to take action to limit freddie and fannie, but he lost Congress and it was never really his top priority. Both bad, Republicans slightly less worse.
3. Bush put into place an expansion of drilling which - entertainingly - Obama is now taking credit for. Gas prices under Bush did spike in 2008 to higher than current levels - the difference being that the Obama administration wants them there, and many officials in his administration want them even higher. The easy money policy that we've been pursuing for a couple of years now means that gas prices are unlikely to see the same kind of collapse that they did after the 2008 spike, given that the dollar is rapidly being devalued due to the need for the FED to purchase all the deficit spending that Democrats are engaging in. Republicans sorta good, FED bad, Dems very bad.

I don't know if I would feel good with the claim Republicans as "better" than Democrats. But I feel I'm standing on pretty rock-solid support when I argue that they are "less-bad".
 
The trillion dollar deficits began under Bush's '09 budget year. Remember?

the FY 09 Budget saw two great spurts of spending - both of which were created and pushed by the Democrat-held House, as required by the Constitution. The first was the TARP bail-out much of which has since been repaid. The second was the giant "Stimulus" pork-project, which was 100% Obama and Pelosi's baby. Can't really blame Bush for what they passed in February of '09.

We shall see how Indiana does in a year or so with it's high unemployment rate.

that is lower than the unemployment rate the nation is enjoying under it's current president.

The stimulus was not a disaster. It kept us from falling into a depression worse than the Great One.

:lamo really? people are still claiming this? :lol:





By taking money out of the productive sectors of the economy and pouring it into the unproductive sectors (my personal favorite - millions spent studying robot bees!), the "stimulus" objectively reduced our recovery.

Which is why our current recovery is so slow compared to the historical average.

Had the U.S. economy recovered from the current recession the way it bounced back from the other 10 recessions since World War II, our per-capita gross domestic product (GDP) would be $3,553 higher than it is today, and 11.9 million more Americans would be employed...

On average, three years after the four deepest previous recessions started, real GDP was 7.6% higher than the pre-recession level. During the Obama recovery, real GDP is up only 0.1%. Forty months after the start of the 1953, 1957, 1973 and 1981 recessions, total employment was on average 4.7% higher than the pre-recession peaks, while total employment today is still down 4.7%—that's a total employment gap of 13.9 million jobs.

The problem is not just the weak recovery but increasing evidence that the economy is now on a growth path far different from the previous quarter century. Despite the largest monetary and fiscal stimuli in American history, in 2009 the capital stock of the nation actually shrank for the first time in the postwar period...

cpwill notes: yes, that's one of the things that happens when you destroy productivity and capital by removing money from productive uses and putting it into unproductive ones.

...In 1982, unemployment reached 10.8% as the Federal Reserve tightened monetary policy in order to put the brakes on inflation. Conditions were hardly conducive to recovery and yet the strong, sustained recovery that followed is permanently identified in our collective memory as the good old days.

If we had matched the 1982 recovery rate, today annual per-capita income would be $4,154 higher than before the recession—that's an extra $16,600 for a family of four—and some 15.7 million more Americans would have jobs. That's enough jobs to employ 100% of the 13.5 million Americans currently classified as unemployed. In addition, we would have provided jobs for 30% of both the 2.4 million discouraged or marginally attached workers and the 4.8 million who have totally dropped out of the work force since January 2008....
 
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it only "shafts" those who choose to borrow to consume. which I am fine with, as that is dangeorus and stupid behavior that should be discouraged.

Wrong, this has already been fact checked. The middle class making less than $200,000 will pay more under the so called "fair" tax.

"Former Reagan Adviser Bruce Bartlett: 23 Percent Figure Is "A Ruse.
" According to former President Reagan adviser Bruce Bartlett in a report for Tax Analysts: "...I think it is reasonable to conclude that the FairTax's emphasis on the 23 percent tax-inclusive rate rather than the 30 percent tax-exclusive rate is a ruse designed solely to increase support for the proposal above what would be the case if it were generally known that the more appropriate rate assumption is 30 percent. This conclusion is reinforced by other deceptions inherent in the FairTax proposal." [Tax Analysts, 12/24/07]


Fair Tax Levy Is Actually 30 Percent. According to Businessweek:

"The FairTax is like the sales taxes that many U.S. states charge, though critics contend that the way it is calculated makes it actually a 30 percent levy, not 23 percent. The 23 percent rate is set at a level designed to raise the same amount of revenue as the taxes it would replace. Yet it assumes full compliance. If experience is any guide, that's too optimistic: The current tax code, even with safeguards such as W-2 forms and automatic withholding by employers, leaks roughly $300 billion a year due to avoidance and evasion." [Businessweek, 4/7/11]

FactCheck.org: 23 Percent Fair Tax Figure Is Equivalent To 30 Percent "On The Actual Price Of The Item.
" According to an analysis of the 2007 FairTax bill by the nonpartisan FactCheck.org:

CNN: "On Its Own, A National Sales Tax Would Be Extremely Regressive.
" According to CNN: "On its own, a national sales tax would be extremely regressive — that is, it would tax everyone who spent everything they earned (and that's a lot of us) at 23% of their income, while those who made enough money to set some aside would, in effect, pay a lower overall rate." [CNN, 2/21/08]


Businessweek: "The Fair Tax Would Weigh Heavier On Lower-Income Households.

" According to Businessweek: "The FairTax would weigh heavier on lower-income households, because they spend a larger proportion of what they earn. That's why Woodall's proposal calls for a 'prebate,' a monthly advance rebate that covers the cost of the tax up to the federal poverty level. Compared with the current system, the FairTax would be a boon to the highest earners, who spend a relatively low share of their income each year and would no longer have to pay taxes on capital gains." [Businessweek, 4/7/11]

FactCheck.org: Fair Tax Would 'Make The Tax Code Less Fair.'

"According to a FactCheck.org analysis of 2007 Fair Tax legislation: "It will collect more money from those earning between $15,000 and $200,000 per year and less from those earning more than $200,000 per year. It is possible that the FairTax would make most people better off, but much of that gain would be a direct result of making the tax code less fair." [FactCheck.org, 5/31/07]

Under Fair Tax, Workers Currently Paying Less Than 23 Percent Of Income In Taxes Are Worse Off.
"According to former President Reagan adviser Bruce Bartlett in a report for Tax Analysts: "But what if the worker is now paying less than 23 percent of his income in federal taxes? In this case, he is clearly worse off. The prices of the things he buys will rise by more than his income rises from the elimination of income and payroll taxes. Conversely, if one is wealthy and in a tax bracket above 23 percent, that person would be much better off. His income and payroll taxes would fall by much more than the prices of goods and services he consumes would rise." [Tax Analysts, 12/24/07]

CNN: Under Fair Tax Scenarios, "Burden Of Taxes In Any Given Year Likely Shifts To Lower Earners.
"According to CNN: "'Fair' is a value judgment, but a lot of people won't think this admittedly lurid scenario sounds fair at all: Let's say a hedge fund manager has a good year and earns $1 billion. If he can somehow manage to scrape by spending, say, $100 million, the other $900 million is tax free. He'll have paid about 2% of his income in taxes that year. If those who can afford to save a large chunk of their income pay less, the burden of taxes in any given year likely shifts to lower earners." [CNN, 2/21/08]
Problematic And Unfair "Fair Tax" Would Burden Middle Class | Media Matters Action Network
 
the FY 09 Budget saw two great spurts of spending - both of which were created and pushed by the Democrat-held House, as required by the Constitution. The first was the TARP bail-out much of which has since been repaid. The second was the giant "Stimulus" pork-project, which was 100% Obama and Pelosi's baby. Can't really blame Bush for what they passed in February of '09.



that is lower than the unemployment rate the nation is enjoying under it's current president.



:lamo really? people are still claiming this? :lol:





By taking money out of the productive sectors of the economy and pouring it into the unproductive sectors (my personal favorite - millions spent studying robot bees!), the "stimulus" objectively reduced our recovery.

Which is why our current recovery is so slow compared to the historical average.



cpwill notes: yes, that's one of the things that happens when you destroy productivity and capital by removing money from productive uses and putting it into unproductive ones.


The soaring deficits were mostly caused by the drop in revenue created by Bush's recession. You totally ignore that fact. Without stimulus, Bernanke would have been right. The country would have fallen into another great depression. There was a reason stimulus was needed. Bush had destroyed the economy. Remember it all came crashing down as Bush was exiting the Whitehouse.
 
Probably why we shouldn't have sit around for the last 40 years with our oiled thumbs up our butts than, huh?




It wasn't my plan. I voted for the guy who had an energy plan 30 years ago that would have prevented, or lessened the energy crisis we face now of our own making. :sun

You mean the guy that said lower your thermostats and put on a sweater?
 
You mean the guy that said lower your thermostats and put on a sweater?

He said a little more than that. You guys really should do some research so not to look like fools.
Carters plan:
That is the concept of the energy policy we will present on Wednesday. Our national energy plan is based on ten fundamental principles.

The first principle is that we can have an effective and comprehensive energy policy only if the government takes responsibility for it and if the people understand the seriousness of the challenge and are willing to make sacrifices.

The second principle is that healthy economic growth must continue. Only by saving energy can we maintain our standard of living and keep our people at work. An effective conservation program will create hundreds of thousands of new jobs.

The third principle is that we must protect the environment. Our energy problems have the same cause as our environmental problems -- wasteful use of resources. Conservation helps us solve both at once.

The fourth principle is that we must reduce our vulnerability to potentially devastating embargoes. We can protect ourselves from uncertain supplies by reducing our demand for oil, making the most of our abundant resources such as coal, and developing a strategic petroleum reserve.

The fifth principle is that we must be fair. Our solutions must ask equal sacrifices from every region, every class of people, every interest group. Industry will have to do its part to conserve, just as the consumers will. The energy producers deserve fair treatment, but we will not let the oil companies profiteer.

The sixth principle, and the cornerstone of our policy, is to reduce the demand through conservation. Our emphasis on conservation is a clear difference between this plan and others which merely encouraged crash production efforts. Conservation is the quickest, cheapest, most practical source of energy. Conservation is the only way we can buy a barrel of oil for a few dollars. It costs about $13 to waste it.

The seventh principle is that prices should generally reflect the true replacement costs of energy. We are only cheating ourselves if we make energy artificially cheap and use more than we can really afford.

The eighth principle is that government policies must be predictable and certain. Both consumers and producers need policies they can count on so they can plan ahead. This is one reason I am working with the Congress to create a new Department of Energy, to replace more than 50 different agencies that now have some control over energy.

The ninth principle is that we must conserve the fuels that are scarcest and make the most of those that are more plentiful. We can't continue to use oil and gas for 75 percent of our consumption when they make up seven percent of our domestic reserves. We need to shift to plentiful coal while taking care to protect the environment, and to apply stricter safety standards to nuclear energy.

The tenth principle is that we must start now to develop the new, unconventional sources of energy we will rely on in the next century.

These ten principles have guided the development of the policy I would describe to you and the Congress on Wednesday.

Our energy plan will also include a number of specific goals, to measure our progress toward a stable energy system.

These are the goals we set for 1985:

Carters policies started to work so well Reagan scrapped them because oil company profits were dropping. Even simple things like lowering thermostats can save 5 to 10% in heating costs. That's adds up. It's not really funny, now is it?

If we had followed Carters policies we would be energy independent right now. Thank Reagan for screwing things up, once again.
 
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Wrong, this has already been fact checked. The middle class making less than $200,000 will pay more under the so called "fair" tax.

"Former Reagan Adviser Bruce Bartlett: 23 Percent Figure Is "A Ruse.
" According to former President Reagan adviser Bruce Bartlett in a report for Tax Analysts: "...I think it is reasonable to conclude that the FairTax's emphasis on the 23 percent tax-inclusive rate rather than the 30 percent tax-exclusive rate is a ruse designed solely to increase support for the proposal above what would be the case if it were generally known that the more appropriate rate assumption is 30 percent. This conclusion is reinforced by other deceptions inherent in the FairTax proposal." [Tax Analysts, 12/24/07]


Fair Tax Levy Is Actually 30 Percent. According to Businessweek:
"The FairTax is like the sales taxes that many U.S. states charge, though critics contend that the way it is calculated makes it actually a 30 percent levy, not 23 percent. The 23 percent rate is set at a level designed to raise the same amount of revenue as the taxes it would replace. Yet it assumes full compliance. If experience is any guide, that's too optimistic: The current tax code, even with safeguards such as W-2 forms and automatic withholding by employers, leaks roughly $300 billion a year due to avoidance and evasion." [Businessweek, 4/7/11]

FactCheck.org: 23 Percent Fair Tax Figure Is Equivalent To 30 Percent "On The Actual Price Of The Item.
" According to an analysis of the 2007 FairTax bill by the nonpartisan FactCheck.org:

CNN: "On Its Own, A National Sales Tax Would Be Extremely Regressive.
" According to CNN: "On its own, a national sales tax would be extremely regressive — that is, it would tax everyone who spent everything they earned (and that's a lot of us) at 23% of their income, while those who made enough money to set some aside would, in effect, pay a lower overall rate." [CNN, 2/21/08]


Businessweek: "The Fair Tax Would Weigh Heavier On Lower-Income Households.
" According to Businessweek: "The FairTax would weigh heavier on lower-income households, because they spend a larger proportion of what they earn. That's why Woodall's proposal calls for a 'prebate,' a monthly advance rebate that covers the cost of the tax up to the federal poverty level. Compared with the current system, the FairTax would be a boon to the highest earners, who spend a relatively low share of their income each year and would no longer have to pay taxes on capital gains." [Businessweek, 4/7/11]

FactCheck.org: Fair Tax Would 'Make The Tax Code Less Fair.'
"According to a FactCheck.org analysis of 2007 Fair Tax legislation: "It will collect more money from those earning between $15,000 and $200,000 per year and less from those earning more than $200,000 per year. It is possible that the FairTax would make most people better off, but much of that gain would be a direct result of making the tax code less fair." [FactCheck.org, 5/31/07]

Under Fair Tax, Workers Currently Paying Less Than 23 Percent Of Income In Taxes Are Worse Off.
"According to former President Reagan adviser Bruce Bartlett in a report for Tax Analysts: "But what if the worker is now paying less than 23 percent of his income in federal taxes? In this case, he is clearly worse off. The prices of the things he buys will rise by more than his income rises from the elimination of income and payroll taxes. Conversely, if one is wealthy and in a tax bracket above 23 percent, that person would be much better off. His income and payroll taxes would fall by much more than the prices of goods and services he consumes would rise." [Tax Analysts, 12/24/07]

CNN: Under Fair Tax Scenarios, "Burden Of Taxes In Any Given Year Likely Shifts To Lower Earners.
"According to CNN: "'Fair' is a value judgment, but a lot of people won't think this admittedly lurid scenario sounds fair at all: Let's say a hedge fund manager has a good year and earns $1 billion. If he can somehow manage to scrape by spending, say, $100 million, the other $900 million is tax free. He'll have paid about 2% of his income in taxes that year. If those who can afford to save a large chunk of their income pay less, the burden of taxes in any given year likely shifts to lower earners." [CNN, 2/21/08]
Problematic And Unfair "Fair Tax" Would Burden Middle Class | Media Matters Action Network
Bruce Bartlett, the same guy that bashed Bush for not following Reaganomics; and then bashing Reaganomics as being wrong for the times?
 
vote obama, 2012!

jimmy carter had it right!

reagan screwed it up!

LOL!

seeya at the polls, pals
 
To claim the republicans are somehow better than the democrats is ridiculous

american voters overwhelmingly disagree

tsunami tuesday---most house seats since 1938, most state reps and assemblies in history, 10 gubs, 6 senators...

seeya at the polls, pal
 
american voters overwhelmingly disagree

tsunami tuesday---most house seats since 1938, most state reps and assemblies in history, 10 gubs, 6 senators...

seeya at the polls, pal

LOL.... really? Overwhelmingly? We have a democratic president and the Senate is controlled by democrats. Every election cycle when things are bad they try to throw the bums out. It's nothing new. How do you think Obama got elected? You people really are fools.
 
Couldda, Wouldda, Shouldda! But didn't. So now your plan is to end using oil, with nothing to replace it....Great plan....Screw the poor people while at the same time saying your for the poor....Wonder how long the lies will be bought.
I've grown tired of hearing this lame argument. Of course there will be continued uses for petrolium in the vast assortment of products we use every day to its continued use as a lubricant and fuel source. Anyone who thinks just because the country shifts its energy policy, i.e., from big oil to hybrib energy sources or hygren fuels cells or even wind or solar, is just basing their objections on fear. Fear that the oil industry will suddenly go away. Fear that countless jobs will be lost. Let's get it straight...

BIG OIL IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE!

They've shown themselves to be big players in our domestic and foreign economy and nothing the Obama Administration does concerning its energy policy will change that. What may likely change, however, is the US becomes a bigger player in domestic oil exports. Right now, what most U.S. oil companies do is setup oil refineries overseas and sell oil abroad directly instead of taking the indirect approach which would be to refine it here and ship it over there. I don't know what the cost analysis is on that, but if we could somehow find a balance between our domestic use of oil (in this case, I'm referring to reduction in domestic use) and increased oil exports, I firmly believe the U.S. could become a major player in the West on oil exports. Kind of like the OPEC of the West. The question becomes how does the U.S. get a larger foothold in that game while also becoming less dependent on foreign oil and also asserting its eneregy independence? If and when an Administration ceases being afraid to find the right balance, then and only then will this country take seeking energy independence seriously.


So what! What does that do right now? I'll tell ya....NOTHING! We could have moved on nuke tech. 30 years ago but you libs, and tree hugging stopped that didn't it? This is a problem aggravated by liberals from beginning to end. You should own it instead of pointing fingers, and bitching about what could have been.

j-mac

Actually, although Liberals lamented environmental safety concerns they weren't the ones who coward from using nuclear technology as a major energy source in America. Most arguments came from the Right with the same banner-cry then as they're decrying now - "Drill, baby! Drill!!!" and "What out for the mushroom cloud"...only in this case they were warning against another 3-Mile Island. Such cries got louder once news of the Chernobyl meltdown went global. But instead of being so fearful, we should have been looking to do what France has done with using nuclear energy as a domestic energy source. I mean, WE split the atom for goodness sakes, yet another country has learned how to better harness its power far better and more efficiently than we do. IMO, that's pathetic.

But I digress 'cause the topic isn't about energy policy nor energy independence. It's about the economy. So, let's bring the topic back around, okay?
 
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It's nothing new

true, it's not completely unprecedented

it happened in 1938 too

LOL!

seeya at the polls, pal

bring secretary chu---he actually WANTS eight dollar gas
 
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I've grown tired of hearing this lame argument. Of course there will be continued uses for petrolium in the vast assortment of products we use every day to its continued use as a lubricant and fuel source. Anyone who thinks just because the country shifts its energy policy, i.e., from big oil to hybrib energy sources or hygren fuels cells or even wind or solar, is just basing their objections on fear. Fear that the oil industry will suddenly go away. Fear that countless jobs will be lost. Let's get it straight...

BIG OIL IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE!

I agree here OV, the question is though not whether or not we begin to develop new sources for lubricants, and fuels, hell, even synthetic sources, but in more what they cost the average family in this country.

See, I think it is way too easy today to throw up there that we will make the switch over to alternative sources, however the cost of that on the working middle class, (people like myself) and the poor will have. I'll tell ya, when gas to get to work starts costing me $200.00 per month, and my electric bill jumps from $100.00, to $220.00 per month, that is just the start of taking my expendable income out of the economy. And all I seem to hear from liberal elites out there is how current fuel costs, and they say hopefully higher, pushing double what they are now to "nudge" me to change is a good thing, and they seem to be happy with the current unemployment numbers touting a paltry 200K jobs like that will signal success. It's real BS! Trying to control my spending, my habits, my leisure time with my family, and my income.

If you ask me this is planned.

They've shown themselves to be big players in our domestic and foreign economy and nothing the Obama Administration does concerning its energy policy will change that.

I disagree. Obama could announce a national crisis call for moving to more domestic energy's and proceed to open up, instead of put off limits, and drag their feet, on American oil that at this moment are not being tapped.

What may likely change, however, is the US becomes a bigger player in domestic oil exports. Right now, what most U.S. oil companies do is setup oil refineries overseas and sell oil abroad directly instead of taking the indirect approach which would be to refine it here and ship it over there. I don't know what the cost analysis is on that, but if we could somehow find a balance between our domestic use of oil (in this case, I'm referring to reduction in domestic use) and increased oil exports, I firmly believe the U.S. could become a major player in the West on oil exports. Kind of like the OPEC of the West. The question becomes how does the U.S. get a larger foothold in that game while also becoming less dependent on foreign oil and also asserting its eneregy independence? If and when an Administration ceases being afraid to find the right balance, then and only then will this country take seeking energy independence seriously.

Agree, and disagree at the same time. First reduction in oil use in this country is NOT going to happen, our population is growing, that means more drivers, more people, and more use of energy.

Second, Energy independence is the last thing on Obama's mind, if it were important to him he wouldn't have continued to keep the Gulf off limits while he gives Soros' Brazilian oil concern $2 BILLION, and tells them that we want to become their best customer.

Third, How do we get to that balance you seem to think Obama is for? Drill.


Actually, although Liberals lamented environmental safety concerns they weren't the ones who coward from using nuclear technology as a major energy source in America. Most arguments came from the Right with the same banner-cry then as they're decrying now - "Drill, baby! Drill!!!" and "What out for the mushroom cloud"...only in this case they were warning against another 3-Mile Island.

Liberals didn't only lament, they took to the gates, and streets. Remember Martin Sheen chaining himself to the gates? I do. We needed to do BOTH! That hasn't changed.


But instead of being so fearful, we should have been looking to do what France has done with using nuclear energy as a domestic energy source. I mean, WE split the atom for goodness sakes, yet another country has learned how to better harness its power far better and more efficiently than we do. IMO, that's pathetic.

I agree. Using Chernobyl (sp) and 3 Mile Isl. as fear tactic to stifle production of more nuclear energy was a venue of the liberal left. That history is clear.

But I digress 'cause the topic isn't about energy policy nor energy independence. It's about the economy. So, let's bring the topic back around, okay?


Oh, but it is exactly about energy, and what this administration is doing purposely right now to them. As I outlined earlier, High energy = Less expendable income = Fewer Jobs = Higher tax, and cost to the middle class and poor who can least afford it. Why is Obama intentionally killing the Middle class?

j-mac
 
The soaring deficits were mostly caused by the drop in revenue created by Bush's recession.

this is partially correct, but not correct when it says "mostly" revenues dropped as a % of GDP, which is what everyone focuses on when attempting to make that claim - what they don't reference is that government spending spiked as a % of GDP at the same time, and the government does not typically tax itself. note for example, that the revenues collected in 2010 roughly match what we collected in 2005, and we are projected to come in above 2005 in 2011. (constant dollars); yet our deficit in 2005 was $318.62 Bn. This year our deficit is projected to be about $1.5-1.6 Trillion. What's the $1.2 Trillion difference? Increased (drastically increased) spending.

So, yeah, the loss of revenue hurt - but as we recover we are increasing our revenues and approaching our former high-water mark. But not as bad as spending - which also grows every year, and typically grows faster than revenues. That's what Obama's "federal spending freeze" meant - he wanted to solidify the much larger base from which spending would grow in line with inflation - figuring that by offering a potemkin solution he could drain support from the Republicans calls for cuts.

Without stimulus, Bernanke would have been right. The country would have fallen into another great depression

History begs to disagree. The US has cut spending twice in the last century in response to economic turmoil - and both times it was rewarded with booms. The experience of other industrialzied nations confirms this. You want to "stimulate"? Cut taxes. you want to really stimulate? Cut taxes and spending.

Lengthy but worth it: Data from the OECD indicates that if you separate the "stimulus" plans that were - in fact - followed by robust economic growth from those that were not, and compared their characteristics, you find that the stimulus packages that appeared to be successful had cut business and income taxes, while those that evidently did not succeed had increased government spending and transfer payments.

the "oh the government can stimulate the economy through spending" models always forget that government got that money from somewhere. Yes, if Government had a magic money tree that could produce endless wealth somehow through breaking the laws of economics without causing inflation, then that might be possible. In the real world, unfortunately, every dollar the government spends it either, taxes (taking from producers), borrows (taking from investors), or prints (taking from everyone who owns dollars). Now, if you take wealth from the people who would otherwise use it to produce, you reduce production. If you take it from the people who would otherwise invest, you reduct investment. If you take it from everyone... well, our gas and food prices rise.

And Golly Gee Willickers, wouldn't you know it, the government took it from investors and everyone, and we saw a dramatic fall in investment and gas and food prices are rising....

There was a reason stimulus was needed. Bush had destroyed the economy

BS: Bush hadn't stopped the economy from wrecking. A whole host of factors (fed policy, deficit spending, the CRA, Freddie and Fannie, the failure of the ratings agencies, a compliant congress) caused the crash of 2008.

BUSH was actually the FIRST one to try to "stimulate" the economy, you may recall - in early 2008, he wanted to "jumpstart" the economy "so that we could avoid a recession". It failed for him, too. Then Obama came around and promised us that if we didn't just triple, but sextupled down, it would be sure to work, and we could "stay below 8% unemployment".... and it didnt' for him, either.

Because the Government is not all-knowing, all-wise, able to predict the future, nor possessing of a magic money tree. If any of these things were true, THEN keynesian stimulus theory would work... and so would state socialism (popularly known as "communism").

Instead, virtually every Keynesian prediction has failed. They told us in 1932 that if we just ramped up spending we could be recovered by 1935 (we didnt' fully recover until the 1950's). They told us in 1946 that if we reduced federal spending we would go back into the Great Depression (instead our economy boomed). They told us in the 1970's that we needed inflation to reduce unemployment (instead we got stagflation). They told us in the 80's that cutting taxes would reduce revenues and potentially harm growth (it didn't). They told us in 2001 that a large tax rebate would fix the Tech Bubble (Bush listened to them, tried it, and it didn't), they told us in 2008 that if we spent 2% of the economy in a "stimulus" package we could "jumpstart the economy" and avoid a recession (Bush listened to them again, and we didnt'). Then they told us in 2009 that if we only spent 9% of our GDP "stimulating" the economy we would be able to break the fall of the recession and keep unemployment under 8%. So we tried that and what was the result?

Had the U.S. economy recovered from the current recession the way it bounced back from the other 10 recessions since World War II, our per-capita gross domestic product (GDP) would be $3,553 higher than it is today, and 11.9 million more Americans would be employed.

History has not been kind to the "we can spend our way to prosperity" crowd.
 
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this is partially correct, but not correct when it says "mostly" revenues dropped as a % of GDP, which is what everyone focuses on when attempting to make that claim - what they don't reference is that government spending spiked as a % of GDP at the same time, and the government does not typically tax itself. note for example, that the revenues collected in 2010 roughly match what we collected in 2005, and we are projected to come in above 2005 in 2011. (constant dollars); yet our deficit in 2005 was $318.62 Bn. This year our deficit is projected to be about $1.5-1.6 Trillion. What's the $1.2 Trillion difference? Increased (drastically increased) spending.

So, yeah, the loss of revenue hurt - but as we recover we are increasing our revenues and approaching our former high-water mark. But not as bad as spending - which also grows every year, and typically grows faster than revenues. That's what Obama's "federal spending freeze" meant - he wanted to solidify the much larger base from which spending would grow in line with inflation - figuring that by offering a potemkin solution he could drain support from the Republicans calls for cuts.



History begs to disagree. The US has cut spending twice in the last century in response to economic turmoil - and both times it was rewarded with booms. The experience of other industrialzied nations confirms this. You want to "stimulate"? Cut taxes. you want to really stimulate? Cut taxes and spending.

Lengthy but worth it: Data from the OECD indicates that if you separate the "stimulus" plans that were - in fact - followed by robust economic growth from those that were not, and compared their characteristics, you find that the stimulus packages that appeared to be successful had cut business and income taxes, while those that evidently did not succeed had increased government spending and transfer payments.

the "oh the government can stimulate the economy through spending" models always forget that government got that money from somewhere. Yes, if Government had a magic money tree that could produce endless wealth somehow through breaking the laws of economics without causing inflation, then that might be possible. In the real world, unfortunately, every dollar the government spends it either, taxes (taking from producers), borrows (taking from investors), or prints (taking from everyone who owns dollars). Now, if you take wealth from the people who would otherwise use it to produce, you reduce production. If you take it from the people who would otherwise invest, you reduct investment. If you take it from everyone... well, our gas and food prices rise.

And Golly Gee Willickers, wouldn't you know it, the government took it from investors and everyone, and we saw a dramatic fall in investment and gas and food prices are rising....



BS: Bush hadn't stopped the economy from wrecking. A whole host of factors (fed policy, deficit spending, the CRA, Freddie and Fannie, the failure of the ratings agencies, a compliant congress) caused the crash of 2008.

BUSH was actually the FIRST one to try to "stimulate" the economy, you may recall - in early 2008, he wanted to "jumpstart" the economy "so that we could avoid a recession". It failed for him, too. Then Obama came around and promised us that if we didn't just triple, but sextupled down, it would be sure to work, and we could "stay below 8% unemployment".... and it didnt' for him, either.

Because the Government is not all-knowing, all-wise, able to predict the future, nor possessing of a magic money tree. If any of these things were true, THEN keynesian stimulus theory would work... and so would state socialism (popularly known as "communism").

Instead, virtually every Keynesian prediction has failed. They told us in 1932 that if we just ramped up spending we could be recovered by 1935 (we didnt' fully recover until the 1950's). They told us in 1946 that if we reduced federal spending we would go back into the Great Depression (instead our economy boomed). They told us in the 1970's that we needed inflation to reduce unemployment (instead we got stagflation). They told us in the 80's that cutting taxes would reduce revenues and potentially harm growth (it didn't). They told us in 2001 that a large tax rebate would fix the Tech Bubble (Bush listened to them, tried it, and it didn't), they told us in 2008 that if we spent 2% of the economy in a "stimulus" package we could "jumpstart the economy" and avoid a recession (Bush listened to them again, and we didnt'). Then they told us in 2009 that if we only spent 9% of our GDP "stimulating" the economy we would be able to break the fall of the recession and keep unemployment under 8%. So we tried that and what was the result?

Had the U.S. economy recovered from the current recession the way it bounced back from the other 10 recessions since World War II, our per-capita gross domestic product (GDP) would be $3,553 higher than it is today, and 11.9 million more Americans would be employed.

History has not been kind to the "we can spend our way to prosperity" crowd.

Massive government spending pulled us out of the Great depression. Reagan pulled us out of his recession by massive deficit spending and deregulation. That led to the Savings and Loan crisis and 180 billion bailout. Historical record.
Bush's meltdown was closer to a depression. The entire banking and housing sectors were on the verge of total ruin. Had the government done nothing the entire country would have collapsed.
 
it only "shafts" those who choose to borrow to consume. which I am fine with, as that is dangeorus and stupid behavior that should be discouraged.

Borrowed money or not, if our economy is based only on essentials, consumption will be at its minimum, so tax income will be less.
 
You mean the guy that said lower your thermostats and put on a sweater?

If that is all you kknow about it, you must have slept thru the Carter administration....
 
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