• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

Ron Mars said:
Continuing to ignore these questions speaks for itself DS.

BTW, shouldn't you be arguing that 0bama be arrested and prosecuted for violating HI law because he publically released his original BC?
Click to expand...


Whole point was that the public cannot force someone to release their birth certificate without justification your high and mightiness.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Right now this is not a Repub/dem issue.... This is about human rights and the issue of justice, and law. Clearly not a repub/dem issues because each side does not represent yes we should keep it open and no we should close it. A small majority of dems want to close it the rest wish it to remain open...
A good majority of dems/liberals/leftist are condemning Obama's decision to keep GITMO open...
Click to expand...

You don't understand.

Where is the 24/7 media coverage?

Where are the calls for 0bama to be impeached and put on trial for war crimes?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Whole point was that the public cannot force someone to release their birth certificate without justification your high and mightiness.
Click to expand...

That was definitely not your point but I'll let the deflection go.

It's difficult for some people to admit they were wrong.
 
Ron Mars said:
You don't understand.

Where is the 24/7 media coverage?

Where are the calls for 0bama to be impeached and put on trial for war crimes?
Click to expand...

First off there was no 24/7 media coverage.
Second off you should figure out how corporate ran media works.
Third off when Obama announced he was not going to close Guantanamo and stall the closing there was a buck ton of media coverage on how he is not closing it...
Also didnt Denis Kucinich and a bunch of other super lib dems call Obama to be impeached on bombing Libya?
Ralph Nader | Impeach President Obama | War Criminal Obama | Mediaite
 
Ron Mars said:
You don't understand.

Where is the 24/7 media coverage?

Where are the calls for 0bama to be impeached and put on trial for war crimes?
Click to expand...

Post 204 covers this well. But do remember, Obama didn't open Gitmo, didn't excuse torture (Obama has denounced torture and ended the use of it), or creae the problems the Bush administration left him.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
First off there was no 24/7 media coverage.
Second off you should figure out how corporate ran media works.
Third off when Obama announced he was not going to close Guantanamo and stall the closing there was a buck ton of media coverage on how he is not closing it...
Also didnt Denis Kucinich and a bunch of other super lib dems call Obama to be impeached on bombing Libya?
Ralph Nader | Impeach President Obama | War Criminal Obama | Mediaite
Click to expand...

Ralph Nader? Are you kidding? What a joke!!

Please answer the question you keep ignoring.

When have captured POW's, much less terrorist, ever had US constituional rights?
 
EIT's led directly to the information that brought Osama to justice.

None of you lefties will ever admit it but you know it's true.

What intelligence are we missing out on since 0bama decided to treat terrorists under the UCMJ?
 
Ron Mars said:
EIT's led directly to the information that brought Osama to justice.

None of you lefties will ever admit it but you know it's true.

What intelligence are we missing out on since 0bama decided to treat terrorists under the UCMJ?
Click to expand...

You actually ahve to prove that. Not just that they got the information (which was kind of something that led to something that led to something that led to something, and not a direct link), but that they would not have gotten the information any other way. Like much of what has been presented as evidence, we may well learn we knew of the person before we got the intel via immoral and illegal torture.
 
RyrineaHaruno said:
Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison | World news | The Guardian

Here is the file with the fifteen year old boy that was a kidnap victim

I'm not shocked that these people would "interrogate" children. People that supported in keeping this prison are sick and I hate that Obama is keeping it open. Yeah, lets keep open a prison were children were interrogated for being terrorist
Click to expand...

The worst part is the Americans who don't even feel the slightest bit of shame or concern over this issue.
 
Ron Mars said:
EIT's led directly to the information that brought Osama to justice.

What intelligence are we missing out on since 0bama decided to treat terrorists under the UCMJ?
Click to expand...

These two statements are experiencing internal logical conflict. The tactics utilized under Obama led to the death of Osama Bin Laden.

How long do you plan to be a torture cheerleader?
 
Last edited:
Boo Radley said:
You actually ahve to prove that. Not just that they got the information (which was kind of something that led to something that led to something that led to something, and not a direct link), but that they would not have gotten the information any other way. Like much of what has been presented as evidence, we may well learn we knew of the person before we got the intel via immoral and illegal torture.
Click to expand...

LOL, keep clinging to that thread..

Obama's greatest presidential feat will be solely and competely the result of the actions of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Guantanamo Bay, continuous waterboarding and torture, the CIA, and Secret Ops.

I know that's hard to accept for some, but it's absolute and true.
 
Erod said:
LOL, keep clinging to that thread..

Obama's greatest presidential feat will be solely and competely the result of the actions of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Guantanamo Bay, continuous waterboarding and torture, the CIA, and Secret Ops.

I know that's hard to accept for some, but it's absolute and true.
Click to expand...

Prove that. i know you want to BELIEVE that. but you actually have to prove it to convince anyone not a faithful.
 
Erod said:
LOL, keep clinging to that thread..

Obama's greatest presidential feat will be solely and competely the result of the actions of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Guantanamo Bay, continuous waterboarding and torture, the CIA, and Secret Ops.

I know that's hard to accept for some, but it's absolute and true.
Click to expand...

I'll be happy to believe this, as soon as you provide evidence.
 
Ron Mars said:
EIT's led directly to the information that brought Osama to justice.

None of you lefties will ever admit it but you know it's true.

What intelligence are we missing out on since 0bama decided to treat terrorists under the UCMJ?
Click to expand...

I thought it was through a monitored cell phone call...
 
Ron Mars said:
Ralph Nader? Are you kidding? What a joke!!

Please answer the question you keep ignoring.

When have captured POW's, much less terrorist, ever had US constituional rights?
Click to expand...
Captured enemy combatants are subject to the geneva convention. They have rights to fair and humane treatment.
 
Boo Radley said:
Prove that. i know you want to BELIEVE that. but you actually have to prove it to convince anyone not a faithful.
Click to expand...

Bush-Era Interrogations Provided Key Details on Bin Laden's Location - FoxNews.com

I know you'll dismiss this because it's "Fox News" (which gets far more right than the other big outlets), but ABC News reported the same thing yesterday. Most of the liberal media is avoiding this truth like the plague right now hoping for some way to spin it, but it won't work. Any logical American knows EXACTLY what put us on his trail.
 
Some reading I ran across:

Surveillance, Not Waterboarding, Led to bin Laden

(snip)

If this timeline is correct — and there may be a lot of adjustment to it in the days and years to come — then that means waterboarding and other abusive techniques failed to get the name out of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libbi. A New York Times account has both men claiming not to know even the courier’s nom de guerre, which actually may have counted as a kind of confirmation by omission in this case. That says something about the limits of brute force in interrogation.

Surveillance, Not Waterboarding, Led to bin Laden | Danger Room | Wired.com


OBAMA OFFICIAL: Bin Laden Intelligence NOT The Result Of Waterboarding

Read more: OBAMA OFFICIAL: Bin Laden Intelligence NOT The Result Of Waterboarding
 
Erod said:
Bush-Era Interrogations Provided Key Details on Bin Laden's Location - FoxNews.com

I know you'll dismiss this because it's "Fox News" (which gets far more right than the other big outlets), but ABC News reported the same thing yesterday. Most of the liberal media is avoiding this truth like the plague right now hoping for some way to spin it, but it won't work. Any logical American knows EXACTLY what put us on his trail.
Click to expand...

I answer this above. It played a minor role, and was likely not gathered under torture.
 
Ron Mars said:
Ralph Nader? Are you kidding? What a joke!!

Please answer the question you keep ignoring.

When have captured POW's, much less terrorist, ever had US constituional rights?
Click to expand...

Reps. Jerrold Nadler (N.Y.), Donna Edwards (Md.), Mike Capuano (Mass.), Dennis Kucinich (Ohio), Maxine Waters (Calif.), Rob Andrews (N.J.), Sheila Jackson Lee (Texas), Barbara Lee (Calif.) and Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D.C.)
Click to expand...
A Congressman Calls For Obama’s Impeachment…and He’s a Democrat! | The Blaze

When have captured POW's, much less terrorist, ever had US constituional rights?
Click to expand...
Its given rights to spies, Mexican bandits, pirates....

Also this is an interesting article:
Do Noncitizens Have Constitutional Rights? - Chris Suellentrop - Slate Magazine
 
Ron Mars said:
Ralph Nader? Are you kidding? What a joke!!

Please answer the question you keep ignoring.

When have captured POW's, much less terrorist, ever had US constituional rights?
Click to expand...

Reps. Jerrold Nadler (N.Y.), Donna Edwards (Md.), Mike Capuano (Mass.), Dennis Kucinich (Ohio), Maxine Waters (Calif.), Rob Andrews (N.J.), Sheila Jackson Lee (Texas), Barbara Lee (Calif.) and Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D.C.)
Click to expand...
A Congressman Calls For Obama’s Impeachment…and He’s a Democrat! | The Blaze

When have captured POW's, much less terrorist, ever had US constituional rights?
Click to expand...
Its given rights to spies, Mexican bandits, pirates....

Also this is an interesting article:
Do Noncitizens Have Constitutional Rights? - Chris Suellentrop - Slate Magazine
 
wapo, august 29, 2009:

How a Detainee Became An Asset - washingtonpost.com

After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials." In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture. Speaking in English, Mohammed "seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group's plans, ideology and operatives," said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. "He'd even use a chalkboard at times."

These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its "preeminent source" on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques. "KSM, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate or incomplete," according to newly unclassified portions of a 2004 report by the CIA's then-inspector general released Monday by the Justice Department. The debate over the effectiveness of subjecting detainees to psychological and physical pressure is in some ways irresolvable, because it is impossible to know whether less coercive methods would have achieved the same result. But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate.

One former U.S. official with detailed knowledge of how the interrogations were carried out said Mohammed, like several other detainees, seemed to have decided that it was okay to stop resisting after he had endured a certain amount of pressure. "Once the harsher techniques were used on [detainees], they could be viewed as having done their duty to Islam or their cause, and their religious principles would ask no more of them," said the former official, who requested anonymity because the events are still classified. "After that point, they became compliant. Obviously, there was also an interest in being able to later say, 'I was tortured into cooperating.'" Mohammed described plans to strike targets in Saudi Arabia, East Asia and the United States after the Sept. 11 attacks, including using a network of Pakistanis "to target gas stations, railroad tracks, and the Brooklyn bridge in New York." Cross-referencing material from different detainees, and leveraging information from one to extract more detail from another, the CIA and FBI went on to round up operatives both in the United States and abroad. "Detainees in mid-2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals -- many of who we had never heard of before -- that al-Qaeda deemed suitable for Western operations," according to the CIA summary.
Click to expand...
 
yesterday, abc reports: the courier that led us to ubl was one of the individuals first made known to us by ksm in the period after he received eit's, during one of what us intel officers quoted by wapo above called the 9-11 mastermind's "terrorist tutorials"

this info was uncovered in the time when ksm became langley's "preeminent source on al qaeda," that is, when ksm "cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent"

ksm, abc advises, first provided langley with the identity, only a nickname

it was al libi who gave it away that this person, one of many people named by ksm, was a courier who, if he were followed, might lead us to the target

abc, yesterday:

Phone Call by Kuwaiti Courier Led to Bin Laden - ABC News

In a secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe years ago, al-Qaida's No. 3 leader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, gave authorities the nicknames of several of bin Laden's couriers, four former U.S. intelligence officials said. Those names were among thousands of leads the CIA was pursuing.

One man became a particular interest for the agency when another detainee, Abu Faraj al-Libi, told interrogators that when he was promoted to succeed Mohammed as al-Qaida's operational leader he received the word through a courier. Only bin Laden would have given al-Libi that promotion, CIA officials believed.

If they could find that courier, they'd find bin Laden.

The revelation that intelligence gleaned from the CIA's so-called black sites helped kill bin Laden was seen as vindication for many intelligence officials who have been repeatedly investigated and criticized for their involvement in a program that involved the harshest interrogation methods in U.S. history.

"We got beat up for it, but those efforts led to this great day," said Marty Martin, a retired CIA officer who for years led the hunt for bin Laden.

Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.
Click to expand...

either way, can anyone deny the president's security adviser?

Said Brennan: "The president had to evaluate the strength of that information, and then made what I believe was one of the most gutsiest calls of any president in recent memory."
Click to expand...

a great day for america!

the nation is gratefully indebted to all who serve us and made this happen
 
Again, you have to prove torture got this information and that it was the major link. If this information came after we had stopped torturing, you can't claim torture led to it.
 
More;


Funny. You would think that if the C.I.A.’s interrogation of high-value detainees was all it took, the U.S. government would have succeeded in locating bin Laden before 2006, which is when the C.I.A.’s custody of so-called “high-value detainees” ended. Instead, after the Supreme Court ruled that year that prisoners needed to be treated humanely in compliance with the Geneva Conventions, the C.I.A. was forced to turn its special detainees over to the military for detention and interrogation using more lawful tactics in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. It took five more years before all the dots could be adequately connected.

Many key details are still missing. But according to the New York Times, the turning point came when detainees being held in Guantánamo—not in the C.I.A.’s secret black-site prisons—revealed to American interrogators the pseudonym used by a key bin Laden courier, whom they also identified as a protégé of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.



Read more News Desk: Bin Laden Dead, Torture Debate Lives On : The New Yorker

So, we didn't get the name until 2007, and torture ended in 2006. So, exactly how did torture lead to this?
 
Boo Radley said:
More;


Funny. You would think that if the C.I.A.’s interrogation of high-value detainees was all it took, the U.S. government would have succeeded in locating bin Laden before 2006, which is when the C.I.A.’s custody of so-called “high-value detainees” ended. Instead, after the Supreme Court ruled that year that prisoners needed to be treated humanely in compliance with the Geneva Conventions, the C.I.A. was forced to turn its special detainees over to the military for detention and interrogation using more lawful tactics in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. It took five more years before all the dots could be adequately connected.

Many key details are still missing. But according to the New York Times, the turning point came when detainees being held in Guantánamo—not in the C.I.A.’s secret black-site prisons—revealed to American interrogators the pseudonym used by a key bin Laden courier, whom they also identified as a protégé of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.



Read more News Desk: Bin Laden Dead, Torture Debate Lives On : The New Yorker

So, we didn't get the name until 2007, and torture ended in 2006. So, exactly how did torture lead to this?
Click to expand...

You're right. We offered them some ice cream, and they told us everything.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom