• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

Boo Radley said:
You would be wrong. Nothing justifies not adhereing to rule of law. Nothing justifies risking harming innocent people. We're a noble and brave people. We should not be so scared that we become more like that which we fight than our better self.
Click to expand...

If you knew everything that happened in WWII you'd probably throw up. It happens in every war, and you want to go crucify individuals who were probably doing their duty at that moment. You don't know the entire cirucumstance, and neither do I; but Monday morning quarterbacking isn't justified. If only we were perfect, if only we were clarvoyant, if only the media was unbiased, if none of the facts were missing from the story or weren't classified.....if only.
 
American said:
If you knew everything that happened in WWII you'd probably throw up. It happens in every war, and you want to go crucify individuals who were probably doing their duty at that moment. You don't know the entire cirucumstance, and neither do I; but Monday morning quarterbacking isn't justified. If only we were perfect, if only we were clarvoyant, if only the media was unbiased, if none of the facts were missing from the story or weren't classified.....if only.
Click to expand...

I know a lot, and we did a lot of wrong. That does not justify doing wrong. Noble and brave people do not justfiy wrong because it happened before. It's not monday morning quarterbacking, it's standing up for core values. You either have them or you don't. You either adhere to rule of law or you don't.
 
Boo Radley said:
I know a lot, and we did a lot of wrong. That does not justify doing wrong. Noble and brave people do not justfiy wrong because it happened before. It's not monday morning quarterbacking, it's standing up for core values. You either have them or you don't. You either adhere to rule of law or you don't.
Click to expand...

You assume the allegation of wrong doing by the soldiers is true, while I question it. I don't go in with the assumption that our soldiers are evil assholes, I assume there is discipline and training particular to handling prisoners. And as far as what the kid did, I don't assume from the start that the kid was just walking along when these soldiers snatched him up and files bogus charges.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Sooo im guessing im sick because i dont support torture? I dont support questionable methods of interrogation? I dont support fair trials? I dont support the right to habeus corpus? I dont support people who have been innocent being held for years and years on end?

Your right i am "sick".. Sorry i believe in the right of law.... Something i thought America stood for.. Oh well im just "sick."
Click to expand...




I wonder if you would be this altruistic had one of them put a bullet in your mothers head or blew up your child's school. :roll:
 
Boo Radley said:
I know a lot, and we did a lot of wrong. That does not justify doing wrong. Noble and brave people do not justfiy wrong because it happened before. It's not monday morning quarterbacking, it's standing up for core values. You either have them or you don't. You either adhere to rule of law or you don't.
Click to expand...



Unless of course obama's in charge, then one should act slightly less outraged. :roll:
 
How many magazines sells with a story about how the military did the right thing, versus how many sells with a story about how the military did the wrong thing?
 
tessaesque said:
I had to have a 16 year old arrested after he stole $500 in product from my store, then threated a staff member. When the cop tried to restrain him the kid took a shot. The cop took him down and cuffed him. IMMEDIATELY the kid started crying, begging for his mother. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...




A buddy of mine a few years ago was killed along with the 12 year old planting an IED. :shrug:
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
I wonder if you would be this altruistic had one of them put a bullet in your mothers head or blew up your child's school. :roll:
Click to expand...

I'm would be that altruistic since I beleive in our American justice system. Plus the fact, we did just find with Timothy McVeigh the Oklahoma city bomber who was sentenced to death. As someone, who actually believes in the rule of law and the American justice system I think we can actuality handle things like these supposed terrorist.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
A buddy of mine a few years ago was killed along with the 12 year old planting an IED. :shrug:
Click to expand...

Um he was in fact a child solider that was brain washed by people by law they shouldn't be in jail for they don't know what is right or wrong Revered since they are in fact only twelve years old.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
A buddy of mine a few years ago was killed along with the 12 year old planting an IED. :shrug:
Click to expand...

Here's a point I'm trying to make, the story can't be completely trusted.

Morrell said that the Guantánamo Review Task Force, established in January 2009 by the Obama administration, considered the leaked files during its review of detainee information. He said: "In some cases, the Task Force came to the same conclusions as the DABs [files]. In other instances the Review Task Force came to different conclusions, based on updated or other available information.

"The assessments of the Guantánamo Review Task Force have not been compromised to Wikileaks. Thus, any given DAB illegally obtained and released by Wikileaks may or may not represent the current view of a given detainee," he added.
Click to expand...

If info inaccurate and/or taken out of context, it can completely change the truth of the matter. I believe in giving our troops the benefit of the doubt until clearly proven otherwise. I don't think those on the otherside feel the same way.
 
RyrineaHaruno said:
Um he was in fact a child solider that was brain washed by people by law they shouldn't be in jail for they don't know what is right or wrong Revered since they are in fact only twelve years old.
Click to expand...

We don't place 12 year olds into battle, so we adhere to our high standards. Unfortunately the enemy doesn't adhere to high standards, and therefore we cannot control against what we will have to defend ourselves. If a 12 year old is pointing an AK-47 at a soldier, that soldier must kill the 12 year old (against his better judgment even). I'm not going to sit over here and judge the man for protecting his own life.

But we're getting off topic here, this is about a prison.
 
Last edited:
American said:
Here's a point I'm trying to make, the story can't be completely trusted.



If info inaccurate and/or taken out of context, it can completely change the truth of the matter. I believe in giving our troops the benefit of the doubt until clearly proven otherwise. I don't think those on the otherside feel the same way.
Click to expand...

Uhhhh...................... They were children being held I will not give the soldiers benefits of the doubt in that regards American. I do give solider benefits of the doubts when I see they did nothing wrong but in this I seen many things they have done wrong..... Like for example water boarding prisoners or questionable cia integration techniques to gain confessions ect.......
 
RyrineaHaruno said:
I'm would be that altruistic since I beleive in our American justice system. Plus the fact, we did just find with Timothy McVeigh the Oklahoma city bomber who was sentenced to death. As someone, who actually believes in the rule of law and the American justice system I think we can actuality handle things like these supposed terrorist.
Click to expand...



Suposed?


Really?
 
RyrineaHaruno said:
Um he was in fact a child solider that was brain washed by people by law they shouldn't be in jail for they don't know what is right or wrong Revered since they are in fact only twelve years old.
Click to expand...


I sitll would have shot the kid, if it meant saving someones life. and "those people" are the types that are in GITMO.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
I sitll would have shot the kid, if it meant saving someones life. and "those people" are the types that are in GITMO.
Click to expand...

I think some liberals have an image in their minds of Bush and Cheney sitting in the Oval Office, rubbing their hands together and giggling at the thought of innocent children locked up at Gitmo.

It's not much different than the school lunch program thing where Republicans are supposedly ripping plates of food away from children, or the social security thing where Republicans supposedly want to force old people to eat dog food and die of disease.
 
Last edited:
RyrineaHaruno said:
Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison | World news | The Guardian

Here is the file with the fifteen year old boy that was a kidnap victim

I'm not shocked that these people would "interrogate" children. People that supported in keeping this prison are sick and I hate that Obama is keeping it open. Yeah, lets keep open a prison were children were interrogated for being terrorist
Click to expand...

So it appears we have been detaining the innocent and releasing the guilty. Now if only there was some tried and tested method determining guilt that dated back to 1215.........
 
Deuce said:
They're uneducated nutjobs from a third-world hellhole, not supervillains. How are they any more dangerous than a murderer or rapist when in prison?
Click to expand...

Most murders and rapists in prison in the US aren't directly responsible for the murders of thousands of people. They aren't typically willing to strap explosives to themselves and march into a crowded area to kil themselves and civilians. They aren't adamantly and steadfastly dedicated to the killing of as many non-muslims as possible. There is a difference between a serial murderer and a mass murderer; a difference between a derangement and an extremist, radicalist belief in the necessary death of thousands; a difference between mental instability and indoctrinated hate.
 
Deuce said:
They're uneducated nutjobs from a third-world hellhole, not supervillains. How are they any more dangerous than a murderer or rapist when in prison?
Click to expand...

Also, rapists and murders don't typically try to recruit new members to the cause; these men at Gitmo very much do.
 
American said:
I think some liberals have an image in their minds of Bush and Cheney sitting in the Oval Office, rubbing their hands together and giggling at the thought of innocent children locked up at Gitmo.

It's not much different than the school lunch program thing where Republicans are supposedly ripping plates of food away from children, or the social security thing where Republicans supposedly want to force old people to eat dog food and die of disease.
Click to expand...

Well according to most accounts its more a case of general sloppyness and incompetency then malice*. People where detained in a incredibly chaotic manner, often by local mercenaries who where paid by the head (see Mozam Begg), and innocent people where detained. If, however we did ever see anyone genuinely malicious in the White House then we should bear in mind that we have now set a precedence that those they command can detain and torture anyone they want indefinetly , anywhere in the world and not have to answer to anyone. Am I the only one who finds this absolutely terrifying?

* Heres a good explanation by one of the lawyers working for the detanees http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6PSmBiWyIo
 
Last edited:
Boo Radley said:
You would be wrong. Nothing justifies not adhereing to rule of law. Nothing justifies risking harming innocent people. We're a noble and brave people. We should not be so scared that we become more like that which we fight than our better self.
Click to expand...

Nothing? EVER?

So when we get intelligence that an attack on thousands or millions is imminent and all the intelligence points to one guy (who may or may not know anything), we should ask him politely to have a chat over tea the next time he's in town? Real life threats call for hard decisions. Sometimes we can't snuggle and drink hot cocoa on the lake shores with suspects.
 
RyrineaHaruno said:
Um he was in fact a child solider that was brain washed by people by law they shouldn't be in jail for they don't know what is right or wrong Revered since they are in fact only twelve years old.
Click to expand...

I'd say by the age of 5 I knew it was wrong to hurt other people. Brain washed or not, a 12 year old isn't stupid. They have the ability to make a differentiation between whether it's okay to kill or not, regardless of the justification. He's just as guilty as those who brainwashed him.
 
tessaesque said:
Nothing? EVER?

So when we get intelligence that an attack on thousands or millions is imminent and all the intelligence points to one guy (who may or may not know anything), we should ask him politely to have a chat over tea the next time he's in town? Real life threats call for hard decisions. Sometimes we can't snuggle and drink hot cocoa on the lake shores with suspects.
Click to expand...

Im not sure how exactly terrorists could mount an attack on millions of people but leaving that aside are there any cases you can point too, in which torture has prevented an attack? You cant just say that policy X must be enforced or something terrible will happen without providing evidence. There must be a limit to this line of argument. Taking this method to the extreme the result would be something like 'We must legalize marijuana to prevent sand people from planting nuclear weapons deep below the surface of the earth' You cant provide evidence, yet you cant say with absolute certainly that sand people are not trying to blow up the earth from the inside, and blowing up the earth from the inside sounds scary. So we are left with the choice of either accepting these claims blindly as long as they are frightening enough or we can ask for evidence.
 
Last edited:
tessaesque said:
Nothing? EVER?

So when we get intelligence that an attack on thousands or millions is imminent and all the intelligence points to one guy (who may or may not know anything), we should ask him politely to have a chat over tea the next time he's in town? Real life threats call for hard decisions. Sometimes we can't snuggle and drink hot cocoa on the lake shores with suspects.
Click to expand...

Since when has that ever happened? First, you'd have to have that information, and have the right person who could actually give you that information. It's not realistic to think that would ever happen. It is also too easy to fool us with misinformation. They would only have to delay. And if we had the wrong guy, which is much more likely, we have wasted time and effort to our detriment. Nearly all studies have concluded that torture is the least effective method for gaining information. It is great for getting confessions, as even the innocent will confess, but not reliable at getting information.

And it is a false choice between torturing and just asking nice. Ever hear of the either / or fallacy? Any time someone gives you only two choices, it's a fair bet they are trying to stack the deck by making one of those choice one no would ever choose. It's poor reasoning.
 
Boo Radley said:
Since when has that ever happened? First, you'd have to have that information, and have the right person who could actually give you that information. It's not realistic to think that would ever happen. It is also too easy to fool us with misinformation. They would only have to delay. And if we had the wrong guy, which is much more likely, we have wasted time and effort to our detriment. Nearly all studies have concluded that torture is the least effective method for gaining information. It is great for getting confessions, as even the innocent will confess, but not reliable at getting information.

And it is a false choice between torturing and just asking nice. Ever hear of the either / or fallacy? Any time someone gives you only two choices, it's a fair bet they are trying to stack the deck by making one of those choice one no would ever choose. It's poor reasoning.
Click to expand...

So what methods are acceptable then? Throw out torture, throw out a polite little chat, and where are we? We call them in for questioning, they say nothing, we release them. We capture and interrogate people every day in this country. They aren't plastering every person they talk to on every news website known to man, but it happens. If we don't get answers then what? Do we stand around with our hands in our pockets and hope? Do we "wait and see" and watch 7 different attacks against US civilians take place over the course of 8 years before we do anything to try and be preemptive?

It's funny...people say Bush had the intelligence to act prior to 9/11, but that he didn't do anything. Now people are saying that there aren't instances were thousands or millions of Americans are at risk, and finding the right person w/the right info as fast as possible is absolutely necessary.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom