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Thread: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

  1. #451
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    i guess holder doesn't know what he's talking about

    LOL!

    or he's lying

    cuz preeminent sources are, after all, preeminent sources

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    you're STILL expecting the SPIES to TELL

    LOL!

    that's so stupid

    america's just gonna have to settle for holder's signing off on "waterboarding... elicited a lot of information"

    cuz, unfortunately, until the spies OPEN UP it's just gonna have to be the last word
    They had no problem telling us about the misinformation we got and used. I know you're willing to swallow anything that supports you and ask no questions, but I find it hard to beleive we can only get examples of failure. You really have to be willing to suspend your disbelief to accept these claims with what we know.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    LOL!

    tell it to holder

    cuz he did more than swallow

    he SIGNED

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    LOL!

    tell it to holder

    cuz he did more than swallow

    he SIGNED
    I'm telling it to you. YOu can't answer me, so don't try to pass the buck.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Whoops, double.
    A history of knowledge will not make us clever for the next time, but wise forever.
    -Jacob Burckhardt.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    language endorsed by eric holder, monday preceding aug 29, 2009: "waterboarding... elicited a lot of information"

    what more can HE say?

    LOL!

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    language endorsed by eric holder, monday preceding aug 29, 2009: "waterboarding... elicited a lot of information"

    what more can HE say?

    LOL!
    Like anyone else, he, you, anyone can shows us some information we actually got. The first to attempt to do so proved false. So, let's see if you or anyone can actually prove any.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargantuan View Post
    You're not getting what I'm saying. You worked in the Army. The Army does not use torture. The army uses conventional methods which are proven time to time to work and be effective. I'm sorry to say, but you can't claim that since you interrogated in counterintelligence, you have more experience. An interrogation changes subject to subject, and different methods are applicable. Whether it's a serial murderer, a narcoterrorist, or whoever you interrogated or talked to friends about interrogating, torture is never acceptable and never works.
    We know the Army doesn't use torture. We're talking about waterboarding, and the Army doesn't use that, either. We're not talking about who does what, either, but what is effective. And yes, if you want to play a card about 'federal law enforcement' when it comes to waterboarding and want it to mean something, you better be willing to accept the "someone who was actually trained as an interrogator" card. Ft. Huachuca, AZ, 2002. I worked as an interrogator, worked with interrogators, went to interrogation school, and even after reclassing to SIGINT continued to work closely with interrogators in specific units- particularly a battlefield surveillance brigade.

    Really? You're sure I haven't? Ok, if you want to doubt what I said, my guess is I doubt you were a 35M. I think you are actually a 91 year old widower living in Australia. I am 49 years old. I have been around for a while, and I've seen it all.
    Again, I doubt it. Intel people wouldn't use the absolutes you use. Cops might, though. Again, interrogations are very different depending on if you're looking for a confession or looking for information.

    I wasn't talking about interrogating detainees. I was talking about in general. I've used techniques like sleep deprivation as well as seen reports of it used on people. Of course it's not the methods that were used in the black sites which was pretty damn long sleep deprivation, but the point is, regarding sleep deprivation, if done for long enough, it confuses the hell out of the subject, and gets them to talk. As for the HCS clearance, I don't talk about what my clearance level is on the internet, though I have seen some people on this forum do that (not you).
    The point is federal law enforcement officers wouldn't have that clearance, period, and even within that clearance, you could get a copy of the interrogation dialogue, but you're not going to hear about means and methods. Which makes me wonder why you're so certain of what you believe. That waterboarding- to say nothing of torture- can never, ever work.

    I can agree with the useful =/ moral part. However, these methods are not useful, and the fallout from them is not worth it.
    Well, interrogators disagree about the useful part, don't they? They do.

    Explain to me how I don't know what I'm talking about. Carrots usually work, and if they don't, brutally beating or torturing the subject isn't going to get them to want to give up information. It's going to cause them to spew whatever crap so they can stop being tortured. I hear people I know who work counterterrorism telling me that it worked to get them to cooperate, as in, stop being silent. That's really as far as I've heard. Whether or not it produced actionable info is probably a no. There are no documented incidents of torture stopping an attack, or in the case of UBL, being the key to finding him.
    Carrots work sometimes, sometimes they don't. Sticks work sometimes, sometimes they don't. Interrogation- as you should know- is the art of getting someone to tell you something they don't want to tell you, regardless of whether it's a confession or information. If a carrot doesn't work, you need to get them uncomfortable (emotionally, usually) to where sharing that information will relieve them of that discomfort; cops, as I understand it, will often guilt the subject in some way in order to do this. That approach (the guilt) rarely works in counterterrorism/counterinsurgency, but there's other ways to try to make it happen. In some situations- but not by any means all- emotional discomfort is not enough but physical discomfort is. Just because emotional discomfort is not enough does not mean physical discomfort will be enough. Just because moderate physical discomfort is not enough doesn't mean more severe physical discomfort will work- but in some situations it works. That's all there is to it.

    You failed to elaborate on the rest of what I said, namely that torture can happen to our own men, or that it can be a recruitment tool (which it is, Gitmo is a huge recruitment tool, even though most of these EITs didn't even happen there)
    Okay? It can be. Are we talking about effectiveness or not? Let's take this one step at a time.

    That's not just a UCMJ brief.. that's what you should've been following as an interrogator or as someone who worked with them.
    No, that's just a UCMJ brief. You just told me what the policy was. You didn't engage in if it's effective or not. We know the policy, why quote it? It didn't say anything about if it could work or not, did it?

    Let me just say I appreciate having this debate with you rather than the idiots in this thread who just post links to random isolated quotes from retired CIA directors who say "It worked" but offer no clarification, or from idiots who just post a link from the IG, who later mentioned that the methods were not clearly helpful.
    I appreciate that, but it irritates me to no end to see you engage in such absolutes. Whether you want to believe me or not, I've worked in as an interrogator for the US Army and continued to work closely- and socialize even more closely, signals intelligence people are mostly geeks where HUMINT guys are fun- with them after that time. I can't think of any of them that would say "Under no circumstances can waterboarding produce actionable intelligence." I can think of many, though, that would say that 90% of the time you get what you need with less severe methods and 9% of you're not going to get anything, period, and only 1% of the time would be useful- I'd be one of them. And, in fact, the percentage is even lower than that. The situation in which these types of methods are useful are incredibly, incredibly rare. And the US used incredibly, incredibly rarely.

    There's a good debate to be had about the pragmatic issues and risk vs. reward, and cost/benefit analysis. There's another good- but, to me, less interesting- debate about the morality of the practice regardless of pragmatic issues. But until you can admit that in very rare situations waterboarding can be effective, we can't get to that. Because you're just working in a very black-and-white worldview.
    A history of knowledge will not make us clever for the next time, but wise forever.
    -Jacob Burckhardt.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Like anyone else, he, you, anyone can shows us some information we actually got.
    who can shows us?

    LOL!

    the SPIES?

    actually, they can't

    it's really stupid to believe otherwise

    think much?

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Again, I doubt it. Intel people wouldn't use the absolutes you use. Cops might, though. Again, interrogations are very different depending on if you're looking for a confession or looking for information.
    I didn't say I work in intelligence. I'm not in that type of field. To be specific I work for ICE. I have arrested people connected with terrorism and I have interrogated them before. I'm sure you know this, but contrary to popular belief by most Americans, ICE does not generally go after random, peaceful people living here illegally. I don't deal with a bunch of immigrants and have them confess to me that they came here illegally. Sure, that's true. Looking for a confession is a lot different than looking for information. Most of the people I have interrogated has been to elicit information.

    The point is federal law enforcement officers wouldn't have that clearance, period, and even within that clearance, you could get a copy of the interrogation dialogue, but you're not going to hear about means and methods. Which makes me wonder why you're so certain of what you believe. That waterboarding- to say nothing of torture- can never, ever work.
    Not necessarily. GS-1811s and most other federal investigators have top secret clearance. I am willing to concede that I suppose in some remote chance, it can work - as I said before, I was a little hyperbolic. The point still remains though. Torture as a method is more ineffective and counterproductive. Don't forget the story of the agent years ago who got an al-Qaeda militant talking with a copy of Harry Potter and a plate of cookies. A lot of times, we can get these people to realize their cause is wrong and that we are a peaceful nation. Also look up Ali Soufan. He had Zubayda talking with normal interrogation, and CIA contractors (not officers, outside contractors) took him out of Soufan's custody. Note he was a federal law enforcement officer.

    Well, interrogators disagree about the useful part, don't they? They do.
    Actually, no. I've really never talked to anyone else other than you that thinks it's a useful method. TV interviews also. If you notice, they bring CIA officers on TV all the time who say torture doesn't work, FBI agents, etc, and they all agree with me - not as hyperbolic as me, but they do agree. I know an Air force interrogator who also doesn't agree with torture. I'm not friends with any local cops other than my wife's brothers, and I never got into this with them.

    Carrots work sometimes, sometimes they don't. Sticks work sometimes, sometimes they don't. Interrogation- as you should know- is the art of getting someone to tell you something they don't want to tell you, regardless of whether it's a confession or information. If a carrot doesn't work, you need to get them uncomfortable (emotionally, usually) to where sharing that information will relieve them of that discomfort; cops, as I understand it, will often guilt the subject in some way in order to do this. That approach (the guilt) rarely works in counterterrorism/counterinsurgency, but there's other ways to try to make it happen. In some situations- but not by any means all- emotional discomfort is not enough but physical discomfort is. Just because emotional discomfort is not enough does not mean physical discomfort will be enough. Just because moderate physical discomfort is not enough doesn't mean more severe physical discomfort will work- but in some situations it works. That's all there is to it.
    I'd say you can put it at a 99 to 1 ratio of carrots to sticks. You're not understanding what I'm saying. Physical discomfort, as in, torturing a subject until they want it to stop, is not effective. You will not get actionable information. Look at exhibit A, John McCain. He was, like terrorists/insurgents, trained at least somewhat to handle being interrogated. He knew that if they tortured him, all he had to do was make things up, which he did! And yes, obviously guilt is not effective with the type of people you were interrogating, though maybe it is possible on some homegrown non Islamists. I am a big fan of methods like sensory deprivation. Sleep deprivation, loud noises, blindfolding, can really work in some cases. The best part is, THEY AREN'T ILLEGAL! They disorient the subject. I'm not talking as far as what happened to Padilla, with loading the guy up with LSD and PCP and then causing permanent mental damage. I'm talking controlled methods that can take turning the lights out in the interview room or turning the heat on high to the next level.

    Okay? It can be. Are we talking about effectiveness or not? Let's take this one step at a time.
    Sure. just making sure you were aware of that.
    No, that's just a UCMJ brief. You just told me what the policy was. You didn't engage in if it's effective or not. We know the policy, why quote it? It didn't say anything about if it could work or not, did it?
    It said information from these methods is not always reliable.


    I appreciate that, but it irritates me to no end to see you engage in such absolutes. Whether you want to believe me or not, I've worked in as an interrogator for the US Army and continued to work closely- and socialize even more closely, signals intelligence people are mostly geeks where HUMINT guys are fun- with them after that time. I can't think of any of them that would say "Under no circumstances can waterboarding produce actionable intelligence." I can think of many, though, that would say that 90% of the time you get what you need with less severe methods and 9% of you're not going to get anything, period, and only 1% of the time would be useful- I'd be one of them. And, in fact, the percentage is even lower than that. The situation in which these types of methods are useful are incredibly, incredibly rare. And the US used incredibly, incredibly rarely.
    Alright. I will give you that. I apologize for being so absolute. Looking back a few pages, I do stick by all of what I said, but I shouldn't have been so absolute. That's interesting you said that because while I was typing this post I said pretty much the same thing above. I actually know of a case where a woman was captured in (I believe) Argentina by the military junta there in the 70s/80s and was tortured for weeks, and finally started giving info, but then they kept going with her, and her brain was completely fried. Not to be a dick or anything, but you don't want to get into knowing "people" with me. One of my good friends is in the white house, and is actually extremely high ranking over there, not the President or anything, but I'm sure you'd know who he is. I actually didn't meet him from my job, but through my daughter years ago, who is best friends with his daughters. I really don't like naming names, but let's just say he's in that picture with the President, VP, and others in the WH situation room that was all over the web following the UBL raid. My talks with him on waterboarding is mostly that it's not worth the risks even if it can in very rare situations give intelligence. I also know people in the CIA, FBI, Air Force intelligence, though no Army people, sorry
    There's a good debate to be had about the pragmatic issues and risk vs. reward, and cost/benefit analysis. There's another good- but, to me, less interesting- debate about the morality of the practice regardless of pragmatic issues. But until you can admit that in very rare situations waterboarding can be effective, we can't get to that. Because you're just working in a very black-and-white worldview.
    I'm sorry. I was being hyperbolic. The morality of the practice really doesn't bother me to be honest. The issue is it's risking something huge (our world credibility, recruiting for al-Qaeda, giving them the unalienable right to torture our men) for pretty much nothing.

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