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Thread: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargantuan View Post
    That's not the point. I do work in similar situations, and my work overlaps with counter terrorism all the time. I'm not some joke from the BIA who protects the sovereignty of Indian reservations. I've arrested people who are/were suspected of terrorism. That said, intelligence collection is not the case here. The case here is whether or not torture works as an interrogation technique, which, as I have said, it does not. I really hate how all of the people who seem to argue for torture in this thread continuously ignore every single point I make and just attack my credibility, or in another case, compliment me for being a law enforcement officer (not what i was going for)
    You say it does not. If we're throwing our personnel experience out there, while I was only a 35M for one of my deployments to Iraq, I think that's a pretty strong testimonial. Torture, or even just waterboarding, can be effective as an interrogation technique. Even if a federal law enforcement officer doesn't think so.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    then why don't you stamp your little feet

    LOL!

    "waterboarding and sleep deprivation were the two most powerful techniques and elicited a lot of information:" language endorsed by eric holder, aug, 2009
    I think that's you game and not mine. The thing is, you haven't answered me. I can't make you, but it is clear that you can't answer me.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    How covenient for you

    I like it when pseudo-intellectuals just scream nu-uh at everything they don't like/agree with

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    There is a lot of redaction, but also highly unclear. You say suggests. But not clearly states. Nor provides any specifics. The CIA has an inherent interest in making this appear effective. It is another thing to prove it effective. IG is outside the CIA, and while they share a government interest, it would be a step removed from the CIA.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazed View Post
    How covenient for you

    I like it when pseudo-intellectuals just scream nu-uh at everything they don't like/agree with
    Besides, that's not what I did, the fact is I'm asking for something specific which is not in that document. It suggests, but provides no specifics, and I am asking for specifics. I have specifics of misinformation that is verifiable. It seems only fair that those who believe in the effectiveness offer at least as much.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanten Janubi View Post
    You say it does not. If we're throwing our personnel experience out there, while I was only a 35M for one of my deployments to Iraq, I think that's a pretty strong testimonial. Torture, or even just waterboarding, can be effective as an interrogation technique. Even if a federal law enforcement officer doesn't think so.
    So you conducted interrogations with torture while you were working in humint? You tortured terrorists? I don't think so...especially since you were in the army, and the army uses their field manual for interrogations, which EXPLICITLY states that torture does not work and not to use it.

    And again, have you seen it used? Because I have, and it doesn't work. Like I said, I've seen a lot worse than the waterboarding they used in the black sites, which had doctors in the room, and was time limited. And btw, like the report says, torture did not work prof. Your report you keep linking shows the IG saying that it was ineffective at a later party. You are simply posting one line over and over like an idiot and no one is taking you seriously.
    Last edited by Gargantuan; 05-21-11 at 04:23 PM.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    you haven't answered me
    eric holder has

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargantuan View Post
    So you conducted interrogations with torture while you were working in humint? You tortured terrorists? I don't think so...especially since you were in the army, and the army uses their field manual for interrogations, which EXPLICITLY states that torture does not work and not to use it.
    Did I ever say that I did? I'm simply saying that I have a vast, vast array of contacts in the community.

    And again, have you seen it used? Because I have, and it doesn't work. Like I said, I've seen a lot worse than the waterboarding they used in the black sites, which had doctors in the room, and was time limited. And btw, like the report says, torture did not work prof. Your report you keep linking shows the IG saying that it was ineffective at a later party. You are simply posting one line over and over like an idiot and no one is taking you seriously.
    So it didn't work the few (?) times you used it, and you've decided it can never work anywhere, anytime, on anyone? That's fantastic.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    No, Holder, Panetta, Hayden have ALL said that EIT's have provided solid info....it jusy is what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Besides, that's not what I did, the fact is I'm asking for something specific which is not in that document. It suggests, but provides no specifics, and I am asking for specifics. I have specifics of misinformation that is verifiable. It seems only fair that those who believe in the effectiveness offer at least as much.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanten Janubi View Post
    Did I ever say that I did? I'm simply saying that I have a vast, vast array of contacts in the community.



    So it didn't work the few (?) times you used it, and you've decided it can never work anywhere, anytime, on anyone? That's fantastic.
    Yes. It doesn't work. I never used it myself, for the record. I've seen it used many, many times, and I've arrested people whom I released to the custody of others who ended up exposed to these methods. If you want me to put in less hyperbolic terms, think of it this way: ANY type of method in which the only incentive to give information the person being interrogated has is to stop pain, the information will be unreliable. People will say anything under torture. Like I said before but it was carefully ignored by everyone in this topic, McCain said himself that he was tortured and gave starting lines of football teams as names of his contacts. There are methods that are 100x more effective to elicit information from people. As I previously mentioned, sleep deprivation is a good one, and even the ACLU says that sleep deprivation isn't illegal (though they do say it is "humiliating", I don't really care, because it works)

    That said, for the 100th time, talk to an interrogator. He/she will tell you these methods are not reliable. I'm not sure if you conducted interrogations while you were in humint, but if you did, and you embraced coercive methods, then I can understand why you are no longer in that career field.

    Why do you think your army interrogation manual, which you and your "vast array of contacts" should have been trained on, says not to use torture? 1) because it doesn't work 2) it's illegal, and unwritten reasons include that it helps recruit the enemy's ranks, and it gives the enemy the unalienable right to torture our soldiers.

    Here is a quote from the manual, which, as I said, since you were in HUMINT, regardless of if you were involved with interrogation or not, should have studied at some point.

    "Acts of violence or intimidation, including physical or mental torture, or exposure to inhumane treatment as a means of or aid to interrogation are expressly prohibited. Acts in violation of these prohibitions may be a violation of US law and regulation and the law of war, including the Geneva Conventions of 1949, and may be criminal acts punishable under the UCMJ and other US law. Moreover, information obtained by the use of these prohibited means is of questionable value. (United States Department of the Army)"
    Last edited by Gargantuan; 05-21-11 at 11:14 PM.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargantuan View Post
    Yes. It doesn't work. I never used it myself, for the record.
    Okay, dude. I'm to believe your experience as an interrogator (perhaps?) in federal law enforcement trumps my experience as a counterintelligence interrogator in international operations, when it comes to counterintelligence operations conducted by folks who aren't in federal law enforcement. Can you see why I don't really give you much benefit of doubt? Why there's literally nothing you could say that would dissuade me, that would influence me, more than what I've already learned? Okay.

    ( I've seen it used many, many times, and I've arrested people whom I released to the custody of others o ended up exposed to these methods.
    I'm sure you haven't, actually.

    If you want me to put in less hyperbolic terms, think of it this way: ANY type of method in which the only incentive to give information the person being interrogated has is to stop pain, the information will be unreliable. People will say anything under torture. Like I said before but it was carefully ignored by everyone in this topic, McCain said himself that he was tortured and gave starting lines of football teams as names of his contacts. There are methods that are 100x more effective to elicit information from people. As I previously mentioned, sleep deprivation is a good one, and even the ACLU says that sleep deprivation isn't illegal (though they do say it is "humiliating", I don't really care, because it works)
    Right. Which is why it's only useful in an extreme set of circumstances. But I appreciate you letting the world know what is useful in general situations. I'm not sure why you'd share what was useful in specific situations. Did you have an HCS clearance? If you did, why would you talk about what activities were useful and what weren't?

    That said, for the 100th time, talk to an interrogator. He/she will tell you these methods are not reliable. I'm not sure if you conducted interrogations while you were in humint, but if you did, and you embraced coercive methods, then I can understand why you are no longer in that career field.
    I've talked to an interrogator and I've been an interrogator. So stop trying appeal to authority when I know you don't know what you're talking about. Carrots are as useful as sticks, and sticks are usually most useful when they're used in very simple ways. But in some situations, sticks are needed. And in the extreme of those situations, waterboarding- or even torture- are useful. To pretend their not is just not grounded in reality- even if it's not moral. Useful =/ moral.

    Why do you think your army interrogation manual, which you and your "vast array of contacts" should have been trained on, says not to use torture? 1) because it doesn't work 2) it's illegal, and unwritten reasons include that it helps recruit the enemy's ranks, and it gives the enemy the unalienable right to torture our soldiers.
    Or because of the Geneva Conventions?

    Here is a quote from the manual, which, as I said, since you were in HUMINT, regardless of if you were involved with interrogation or not, should have studied at some point.

    "Acts of violence or intimidation, including physical or mental torture, or exposure to inhumane treatment as a means of or aid to interrogation are expressly prohibited. Acts in violation of these prohibitions may be a violation of US law and regulation and the law of war, including the Geneva Conventions of 1949, and may be criminal acts punishable under the UCMJ and other US law. Moreover, information obtained by the use of these prohibited means is of questionable value. (United States Department of the Army)"

    Well, that tells me what's prohibited, not what's useful, but I appreciate the UCMJ brief. It's been awhile, but god knows there's nothing I miss more than a 0600 brief about annual training, so thanks.
    Last edited by Nanten Janubi; 05-22-11 at 01:18 AM.
    A history of knowledge will not make us clever for the next time, but wise forever.
    -Jacob Burckhardt.

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