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Thread: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

  1. #401
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    ask holder, honey
    YOUR cite said nothing of holder
    instead, it attributed the quote you repeat to one John L. Helgerson, the former CIA inspector general who investigated the agency's detention and interrogation program

    he's the fellow who also told us:
    "But we didn't have the time or resources to do a careful, systematic analysis of the use of particular techniques with particular individuals and independently confirm the quality of the information that came out."
    and this
    John L. Helgerson, the former CIA inspector general who investigated the agency's detention and interrogation program, said his work did not put him in "a position to reach definitive conclusions about the effectiveness of particular interrogation methods."
    [emphasis by bubba]

    but go on and give us the cite where holder is shown to have made that statement
    please
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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  2. #402
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Is it? Not saying never is not to say it is effective in any situation. We may have gotten something here and there, but that wouldn't make it effective anywhere. It would be a leap to conclude that it was. Instead, we'd need much more information and a very detailed study. That's why i point to existing litature on the subject, which has nearly always concluded that torture is not effective at gathering information.
    Why do you keep spelling literature wrong? Anyway, there is such things out there, but obviously they're not going to be open source, for two reasons: public outcry and the compromise of "means and methods" that the intelligence community despises.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    from your cite
    yes, mr helgerson says he can't make "definitive conclusions about the effectiveness of particular interrogation methods"

    but the ig is unequivocal in his conclusion that ksm became langley's "preeminent source," who conducted "terrorist tutorials," who "cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent" only "after his spirit was broken" in the month after his capture by very harsh eit's used against the 9-11 mastermind in a secret prison in eastern europe, who helped agents compile "a list of 70 individuals, many of whom we had never heard of," allowing langley to "cross reference material from different detainees" and "leverage info from one to extract more detail from another," enabling agents "to round up operatives in the us and abroad"

    These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its "preeminent source" on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques.

    "KSM, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate or incomplete," according to newly unclassified portions of a 2004 report by the CIA's then-inspector general released Monday by the Justice Department.

    The debate over the effectiveness of subjecting detainees to psychological and physical pressure is in some ways irresolvable, because it is impossible to know whether less coercive methods would have achieved the same result. But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate.

    John L. Helgerson, the former CIA inspector general who investigated the agency's detention and interrogation program, said his work did not put him in "a position to reach definitive conclusions about the effectiveness of particular interrogation methods."

    "Certain of the techniques seemed to have little effect, whereas waterboarding and sleep deprivation were the two most powerful techniques and elicited a lot of information," he said in an interview. "But we didn't have the time or resources to do a careful, systematic analysis of the use of particular techniques with particular individuals and independently confirm the quality of the information that came out."

    Mohammed described plans to strike targets in Saudi Arabia, East Asia and the United States after the Sept. 11 attacks, including using a network of Pakistanis "to target gas stations, railroad tracks, and the Brooklyn bridge in New York." Cross-referencing material from different detainees, and leveraging information from one to extract more detail from another, the CIA and FBI went on to round up operatives both in the United States and abroad.

    "Detainees in mid-2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals -- many of whom we had never heard of before -- that al-Qaeda deemed suitable for Western operations," according to the CIA summary.

    Mohammed was an unparalleled source in deciphering al-Qaeda's strategic doctrine, key operatives and likely targets, the summary said, including describing in "considerable detail the traits and profiles" that al-Qaeda sought in Western operatives and how the terrorist organization might conduct surveillance in the United States.

  4. #404
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    To those of you who agreed with my post but say it's not totally impossible, you're right. I was using a bit of hyperbole, but I'll tell you right now, waterboarding anyone other than some idiot street criminal has almost 0 chance of yielding actionable info.


    Prof, the quote from the report shows that waterboarding got people to talk. Of course it did! If you've ever seen 24 or an action movie, they like to talk about "breaking points". What they say there is half true. Everyone has a point where they can't take it anymore, but unlike TV, the person will not start divulging actionable intelligence. The person will say whatever they can to prolongue not being tortured. That's what happened with KSM and others. No actionable intelligence, but it got them to talk about stuff. I speak to people about this a lot. I have high up friends, you meet them when you do federal law enforcement. One of them tells me "KSM started singing like a bird after he was waterboarded enough" I ask him what did we learn? Answer is it's unclear. The officials have no problem saying when something doesn't work, we get all these details, etc. It's not because it's classified. It's because there's nothing actionable learned. Look at the bin laden stuff. They tell us we learned parts from interrogating KSM, that he blatantly lied under torture, which as I said people do, and that tipped us off to the courier being more important than previously thought

    As for sleep deprivation, that works. Police departments all over the nation do that. It disorients the subject and causes them to not think clearly and be more willing to give up info. A common technique is to let a subject go to sleep, then wake him, then let him go back, etc all in 5-10 minute intervals.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Federal law enforcement is very different from intelligence collection, though.
    A history of knowledge will not make us clever for the next time, but wise forever.
    -Jacob Burckhardt.

  6. #406
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanten Janubi View Post
    Anyway, there is such things out there, but obviously they're not going to be open source, for two reasons: public outcry and the compromise of "means and methods" that the intelligence community despises.
    I'm not following you, but point is, what we have written from studies, clearly spell out that torture is not effective for gatheirng information. Torture isn't new. We didn't just now invent waterboarding or any of these things. The research has been done, so I suggests there's a much simplier reason why no one has been able to give much if anything concerning details of what we got through torture. We didn't get much. Reasonable people would like say, "That's it? You broke the law, tortured innocent people, and that's all we got?"

    Better for them to be vague and merely make claims.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    YOUR cite said nothing of holder
    instead, it attributed the quote you repeat to one John L. Helgerson, the former CIA inspector general who investigated the agency's detention and interrogation program

    he's the fellow who also told us:
    and this
    [emphasis by bubba]

    but go on and give us the cite where holder is shown to have made that statement
    please
    Posting mindless links without actually reading or seeking to understand them seems to be a rather common practice with some.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Posting mindless links without actually reading or seeking to understand them seems to be a rather common practice with some.
    says the person who links to the SYDNEY MORNING HERALD to argue for teacher retention in new york

    LOL!

  9. #409
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    says the person who links to the SYDNEY MORNING HERALD to argue for teacher retention in new york

    LOL!
    Do wish I didn't scare you so. If I didn't, you might actually understand what has been posted and why. So often you miss the point altogether. Sadly.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    ksm became langley's PREEMINENT SOURCE on all things aq---cia's ig report released by eric holder, aug, 2009

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