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Thread: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanten Janubi View Post
    But...does anyone consider it a preferred method? I believe it is considered one of the last resorts, used extremely rarely- considering that probably tens of thousands of individuals in Iraq and Afghanistan have been questioned at some point or another over the last decade, I would imagine waterboarding (to say nothing of torture) has been performed on far less than even 1% of the subjects. It seems to be another tool in the toolbox, used extremely rarely at best. Not the standard welcome-to-this-interrogation-before-we-get-started-put-this-over-your-head that many like to imagine it to be.



    I would imagine for effectiveness.
    I don't believe that's true. It has been proven repeatedly to be largely ineffective, especially compared to other methods. As for who it was applied, to, I'm not sure we can say with certainty the percentage. We know a couple died in AFghanistan, and it appears at elast one of them was likely innocent with nothing to share. We know that al Libi gave us misinformation and that we used it in our rationale for invading Iraq. We've been told KSm gave us information, but we've seen nothing specific. What we do know is he and our interogators tell us he gave a lot of misinformation, and that we did not get the OBL intel until long after the IET stopped. This suggests more traditional methods got the intel the EIT did not.

    The litasture says tortureis great for confessions, regardless of guilt. However, the vast majority of litature says it is not effective in getting information. Other methods are considerably much more effective. Now, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, so one can never say never. But, when you add it's ineffectiveness with the moral and legal issues, it should be something avoided.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Of course it's a matter of belief because you refuse to believe those who were actually there and saw the results and are instead following the word of a person with no involvement whatsoever. That is clearly what you have chosen to believe.


    Yu really shuld follow your own advice.

    The evidence is clear and those who participated have been quite straightforward, apart from Panetta who tried to obfuscate a little, just what they did and what the results were. You may believe these people are lying, but that is only your belief. So far there is no one who was directly involved who denied what happened.
    Again, it is not who we believe. If you accept what anyone says, you are easily fooled. Instead, they must present evidence to support factual claims. There are people who like and trust me, but if I said I could fly, I would expect them to show that could. No one has presented anything that we can verify or examine. And when some have tried, it has proven false. As what we have seen is false, exactly why would you trust them?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    This suggests more traditional methods got the intel the EIT did not
    "waterboarding and sleep deprivation were the two most powerful techniques and elicited a lot of information:" john helgerson's report, released by eric holder on the monday preceding aug 29, 2009

    hey, with reasoning like that who needs links (from new south wales)

    LOL!

    The litasture says
    the vast majority of litature says
    dept chair, huh?

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't believe that's true. It has been proven repeatedly to be largely ineffective, especially compared to other methods. As for who it was applied, to, I'm not sure we can say with certainty the percentage. We know a couple died in AFghanistan, and it appears at elast one of them was likely innocent with nothing to share. We know that al Libi gave us misinformation and that we used it in our rationale for invading Iraq. We've been told KSm gave us information, but we've seen nothing specific. What we do know is he and our interogators tell us he gave a lot of misinformation, and that we did not get the OBL intel until long after the IET stopped. This suggests more traditional methods got the intel the EIT did not.
    But, how you would know? Most people that work in intelligence, who have a larger understanding of what information is about than the rest of the world, don't have knowledge (let alone complete knowledge) of the who said what and by what means. How do you know?

    The litasture says tortureis great for confessions, regardless of guilt. However, the vast majority of litature says it is not effective in getting information. Other methods are considerably much more effective. Now, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, so one can never say never. But, when you add it's ineffectiveness with the moral and legal issues, it should be something avoided.
    In some situations it would be effective and in the vast majority of them it would not be. And, in the vast majority of cases, it is not used. Do you have any of this literature available? From a nonbiased source?
    A history of knowledge will not make us clever for the next time, but wise forever.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, it is not who we believe. If you accept what anyone says, you are easily fooled. Instead, they must present evidence to support factual claims. There are people who like and trust me, but if I said I could fly, I would expect them to show that could. No one has presented anything that we can verify or examine. And when some have tried, it has proven false. As what we have seen is false, exactly why would you trust them?

    You want it all on tape then?

    And everything from now on, in order to satisfy you, must be on video and notarized. Confessions won't do.

    So I suppose you are one of those who believe Osama is still alive then and Obama should have shown his notarized long form birth certificate from day one.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Michael Hayden on CNN just moments ago (the bin Laden special is airing as we speak), just said something about how he understands if people don't want their country doing that type of stuff, but that "no one" he knows would say it was ineffective. Then they had an Air Force HUMINT guy offer what seemed like a counterpoint, saying that coercion is emphatically not the best way to get information, and that virtually all of his colleagues agree. However, that's not a refutation, because Hayden didn't say it was the best way. I think my opinion that it is effective in a very limited way, under a very specific criteria withstands what both of them said.

    Oftentimes when this debate is raised, I'm reminded of a Kathryn Schultz quote: "Often, our beliefs about what is factually right and our beliefs about what is morally right are entirely inextricable." What's so wrong with saying "I'm against waterboarding, but I understand it can be effective in certain situations, even if they're very rare. I still am against it for moral reasons"? Why do people seem to be incapable of separating the two?
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Oftentimes when this debate is raised, I'm reminded of a Kathryn Schultz quote: "Often, our beliefs about what is factually right and our beliefs about what is morally right are entirely inextricable." What's so wrong with saying "I'm against waterboarding, but I understand it can be effective in certain situations, even if they're very rare. I still am against it for moral reasons"? Why do people seem to be incapable of separating the two?
    That is a legitimate argument and one more persuasive than it not working at all.

    However I believe waterboarding should be used on 100% of terrorists, just in case they have anything of value to say. They deserve no GC rights whatsoever.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    I disagree, simply because there are easier and more effective ways to procure information in most cases. In many cases, subjects will respond to positive feedback (the carrot, as opposed to the stick). It's a lot easier to get someone to share information by giving them desserts (and that really happened), than to waterboard them or even put them in stress positions or put them under emotional and psychological duress. Also, it holds the possibility of running them as an agent in the future, which those other methods preclude.

    I'm just all about the pragmatism.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanten Janubi View Post
    I disagree, simply because there are easier and more effective ways to procure information in most cases. In many cases, subjects will respond to positive feedback (the carrot, as opposed to the stick). It's a lot easier to get someone to share information by giving them desserts (and that really happened), than to waterboard them or even put them in stress positions or put them under emotional and psychological duress. Also, it holds the possibility of running them as an agent in the future, which those other methods preclude.

    I'm just all about the pragmatism.
    I am as well. But I say whatever works. Any human rights they once might had disappears once they adopt terrorism.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You want it all on tape then?

    And everything from now on, in order to satisfy you, must be on video and notarized. Confessions won't do.

    So I suppose you are one of those who believe Osama is still alive then and Obama should have shown his notarized long form birth certificate from day one.
    I want verifiable evidence. We ahd no problem finding and presenting evidence of where it was not effective. Look no farther than al Libi giving us misinformation that we used to justify invading Iraq. It's verifiable, documented and there for all to see. Are you suggesting that only information that disproves your position can eb given? I find that hard to beleive, if it exists.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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