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Thread: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

  1. #341
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanten Janubi View Post
    Why would people argue about this as if they had even close to the requisite information to come to any type of conclusion?
    Excellent question. Like I've said before, officials from the CIA are not reliable sources. I don't care what the Director said, or the associate director said. Those are political appointments. The republican ones will say it worked, the democratic ones will say it didn't.

    Talk to someone who has actually interrogated people before. They will tell you that torture doesn't work. That simple. Any FBI agent or CIA officer interviewed says it doesn't work. I have seen torture before, and no, it doesn't work. One case, I arrested someone for reentering the US after being deported, and a police department contacted us saying the man I arrested was involved with a cop shooting. We let the department take him, and they ended up beating him for hours, and placing a bag over his head and stopping him from breathing at periodic intervals. Did he confess to shooting anyone? Nope. Did he give up whichever one of his friends shot the officer? Nope. He didn't. They ended up finding out who shot the officer through regular police work, which is how you get intelligence, not by beating it out of people. This was back in the 80s, but again, no matter what date it is, it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't work.

    Oh, and don't forget what else torture does. Helps al-Qaeda recruit, puts our soldiers at risk from al-Qaeda, and it opens the door for other nations to torture our troops. Say we go to war with China 50 years from now. They will argue that they have the right to torture our captive troops because we did it and said it was OK back in the 2000s.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    I've never talked to an FBI agent about it, but I have talked to CIA/NSA/DIA and military operatives about it. I don't know why someone would say torture (or even waterboarding) 'doesn't work' in such broad terms. Ever? Never ever? Never ever ever? That seems particularly short-sighted. That said, no one without an HCS clearance can tell anyone either way.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanten Janubi View Post
    I've never talked to an FBI agent about it, but I have talked to CIA/NSA/DIA and military operatives about it. I don't know why someone would say torture (or even waterboarding) 'doesn't work' in such broad terms. Ever? Never ever? Never ever ever? That seems particularly short-sighted. That said, no one without an HCS clearance can tell anyone either way.
    Not actually what's being claimed. What the litatrue says is that it is unrealiable, more unreliable than other methods. Absolutes are rarely used because they are rarely true. However, considering the draw backs, and that we know and have verifiable evidence of misinformatiuon that was not only given by those who received IETs, but that we used that misinofrmation in our decision making process, and that we cannot point to anything as specific or verifiable that we actually got that wa valid, well, there is little reason to consider torture a prefered method. Then, add that it is not only immoral, but against the law, and you have to ask why are people working so hard to try and justify this?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You seem quick enough to defend John McCain's point of view but not those who were actually directly involved.
    Those who are involved have reason to deceive. As someone torture, McCain has little reason to do the same. Also, McCain's story is known, and verifiable to a degree that those directly involved have not equaled.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Those who are involved have reason to deceive. As someone torture, McCain has little reason to do the same. Also, McCain's story is known, and verifiable to a degree that those directly involved have not equaled.
    So no matter what those directly involved say, you will not believe them?

    Instead you prefer to believe those who have no real knowledge of what happened.

    How is McCain's story verifiable if he didn't participate?

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    So no matter what those directly involved say, you will not believe them?

    Instead you prefer to believe those who have no real knowledge of what happened.

    How is McCain's story verifiable if he didn't participate?
    It is not a matter of belief. This is what I always try to get across to those on your side. Anyone relying on belief can be fooled. No matter who says anything like this of a factual nature, your response should be what evidence do you have. It doesn't matter who says it. Part of our mistake with Iraq for example was too many relied on belief and not actual evidence. Anyone can say anything, and there are often reasons for them to do so. We should always ask for more.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    As someone torture (sic), McCain has little reason to do the same.
    so the fact that the maverick was hung by his arms in VIETNAM gives him more authority than ERIC HOLDER about what happened in a SECRET PRISON in eastern europe?

    LOL!

    think much?

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What the litatrue says
    dept chair, huh?

    LOL!

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It is not a matter of belief.
    Of course it's a matter of belief because you refuse to believe those who were actually there and saw the results and are instead following the word of a person with no involvement whatsoever. That is clearly what you have chosen to believe.
    .This is what I always try to get across to those on your side. Anyone relying on belief can be fooled. No matter who says anything like this of a factual nature, your response should be what evidence do you have. It doesn't matter who says it. Part of our mistake with Iraq for example was too many relied on belief and not actual evidence. Anyone can say anything, and there are often reasons for them to do so. We should always ask for more.
    Yu really shuld follow your own advice.

    The evidence is clear and those who participated have been quite straightforward, apart from Panetta who tried to obfuscate a little, just what they did and what the results were. You may believe these people are lying, but that is only your belief. So far there is no one who was directly involved who denied what happened.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not actually what's being claimed. What the litatrue says is that it is unrealiable, more unreliable than other methods. Absolutes are rarely used because they are rarely true. However, considering the draw backs, and that we know and have verifiable evidence of misinformatiuon that was not only given by those who received IETs, but that we used that misinofrmation in our decision making process, and that we cannot point to anything as specific or verifiable that we actually got that wa valid, well, there is little reason to consider torture a prefered method.
    But...does anyone consider it a preferred method? I believe it is considered one of the last resorts, used extremely rarely- considering that probably tens of thousands of individuals in Iraq and Afghanistan have been questioned at some point or another over the last decade, I would imagine waterboarding (to say nothing of torture) has been performed on far less than even 1% of the subjects. It seems to be another tool in the toolbox, used extremely rarely at best. Not the standard welcome-to-this-interrogation-before-we-get-started-put-this-over-your-head that many like to imagine it to be.

    Then, add that it is not only immoral, but against the law, and you have to ask why are people working so hard to try and justify this?
    I would imagine for effectiveness.
    A history of knowledge will not make us clever for the next time, but wise forever.
    -Jacob Burckhardt.

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