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Thread: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    I have done my homework. Many years ago. I've been reading about the info gained from EIT's for some time. I know that actionable intelligence was gained that definately prevented further terrorist attacks and saved innocent lives.

    I'm not really surprised that we tracked down OBL from the info obtained from the EIT's'. I'm sure there is more info we still don't know about that was obtained by them.

    I'm glad the fact that we knew the identity OBL's currier was never leaked to the NYT.
    Like I said, I am a federal law enforcement officer. I don't work in counter terrorism, but I've interrogated hundreds of people, alone, and with other agents. Let me ask you, have you ever conducted an interrogation? If so, you'll know that coercive methods do not work. Maybe, just maybe, you can threaten to use them on some punk kid to find where he's stashing coke, but actually using them is not effective. I've seen people use them before. Not within my agency or the federal government but I've seen local cops use them on people to find the name of a cop killer. One case, officers of a police department that will remain unnamed took a suspect I arrested for re-entering the country after being deported for interrogation on the murder of a police officer. They put a bag on the guys head and locked him in a dark room for hours, then beat the hell out of him. Did he give them a name? Nope. Nothing, zero. I have plenty of other stories like this but that is the most hard hitting one.

    We did not track him down from EIT information. You are so wrong it's not even funny anymore. We learned the couriers name through intelligence, and then we checked the name with KSM, who lied about it. His lie is what made us catch on.

    If you can find me one source of an EIT working on a suspect and finding a real lead, other than statements by Dick Cheney or George Bush, then I will be happy to give this another look. Otherwise, I'll just suppose you've given up.
    Last edited by Gargantuan; 05-06-11 at 09:53 PM.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Well according to most accounts its more a case of general sloppyness and incompetency then malice*. People where detained in a incredibly chaotic manner, often by local mercenaries who where paid by the head (see Mozam Begg), and innocent people where detained. If, however we did ever see anyone genuinely malicious in the White House then we should bear in mind that we have now set a precedence that those they command can detain and torture anyone they want indefinetly , anywhere in the world and not have to answer to anyone. Am I the only one who finds this absolutely terrifying?

    * Heres a good explanation by one of the lawyers working for the detanees YouTube - Guantánamo Bay files: 'The vast majority were not extremists'
    Then you also believe the Obama has continued in this "incompetency".
    Last edited by American; 05-06-11 at 09:57 PM.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargantuan View Post
    Like I said, I am a federal law enforcement officer. I don't work in counter terrorism, but I've interrogated hundreds of people, alone, and with other agents.
    I appreciate your position in law enforcement and sincerely thank you for that service. It’s a very tough job and often thankless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargantuan View Post
    We did not track him down from EIT information. You are so wrong it's not even funny anymore. We learned the couriers name through intelligence, and then we checked the name with KSM, who lied about it. His lie is what made us catch on.

    If you can find me one source of an EIT working on a suspect and finding a real lead, other than statements by Dick Cheney or George Bush, then I will be happy to give this another look. Otherwise, I'll just suppose you've given up.
    Well,this guy completely disagrees. We haven’t heard much about him because he’s being ignored. The lefty media is in full spin mode.

    As I stated before, I’ve been reading about actionable intelligence gained from interrogating KSM and 2 others. They were not being cooperative and we didn’t have 6-12 months to try and “persuade” them to talk. They provided much more that just info about OBL. We prevented further terrorist attacks after 9/11.

    A former head of counterterrorism at the CIA, who was investigated last year by the Justice Department for the destruction of videos showing senior al-Qaeda officials being interrogated, says that the harsh questioning of terrorism suspects produced the information that eventually led to Osama bin Laden's death.
    Jose Rodriguez ran the CIA's CounterTerrorism Center from 2002 to 2005 during the period when top al-Qaeda leaders Khalid Sheikh Mohammad (KSM) and Abu Faraj al-Libbi were taken into custody and subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques" at secret black site prisons overseas. KSM was subjected to waterboarding, sleep deprivation and other techniques. Al Libbi was not waterboarded, but other EITs were used on him.
    "Information provided by KSM and Abu Faraj al Libbi about Bin Laden's courier was the lead information that eventually led to the location of [bin Laden's] compound and the operation that led to his death," Rodriguez tells TIME in his first public interview. Rodriguez was cleared of charges in the video destruction investigation last year.



    Did Waterboarding of High-Value Detainees Lead the U.S. to bin Laden? - Yahoo! News

    bin laden courier KSM Jose Rodriguez - Google Search
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    As we got the name in 2007, and stopped waterboarding and harsh techniques long before, I challenge you to produce anything other than someone claiming something contrary to the actual evidence.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    I appreciate your position in law enforcement and sincerely thank you for that service. It’s a very tough job and often thankless.
    Thank you... it really is. If you're not a local cop wearing a uniform these days it's pretty much as thankless as it gets



    As I stated before, I’ve been reading about actionable intelligence gained from interrogating KSM and 2 others. They were not being cooperative and we didn’t have 6-12 months to try and “persuade” them to talk. They provided much more that just info about OBL. We prevented further terrorist attacks after 9/11.
    They provided information that was not actionable. KSM confessed to numerous crimes. He said that he wanted to behead Jimmy Carter, he said he wanted to blow up the Brooklyn bridge, etc. These did not pan out to anything. You know why? Because like with any coercive interrogation, these things are made up ON THE SPOT by the suspect, or made up shortly before the suspect's interrogation so he can get his made up story completely straight. If you don't give someone an incentive to talk other than stopping pain, you won't get any good information.
    A former head of counterterrorism at the CIA, who was investigated last year by the Justice Department for the destruction of videos showing senior al-Qaeda officials being interrogated, says that the harsh questioning of terrorism suspects produced the information that eventually led to Osama bin Laden's death.
    Jose Rodriguez ran the CIA's CounterTerrorism Center from 2002 to 2005 during the period when top al-Qaeda leaders Khalid Sheikh Mohammad (KSM) and Abu Faraj al-Libbi were taken into custody and subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques" at secret black site prisons overseas. KSM was subjected to waterboarding, sleep deprivation and other techniques. Al Libbi was not waterboarded, but other EITs were used on him.
    "Information provided by KSM and Abu Faraj al Libbi about Bin Laden's courier was the lead information that eventually led to the location of [bin Laden's] compound and the operation that led to his death," Rodriguez tells TIME in his first public interview. Rodriguez was cleared of charges in the video destruction investigation last year.
    That proves absolutely nothing. The main issue at hand here is the only evidence in support of EITs comes from political appointees. CIA directors, assistant CIA directors (namely this guy who destroyed videotapes, cleared of charges my ass, he destroyed evidence = crime, but since he's a gov. official, he doesn't get charged), directors of national intelligence, etc. These people do not see what goes on on the ground. They are not in the room conducting the interrogations. I can give you quotes from numerous Clinton officials who say these techniques do not work. I can give you the interview with FBI director Mueller (Bush appointee) stating that torture didn't work and didn't save lives. That totally contradicts all these CIA people, who by the way rarely are the ones taking out terror cells. The FBI is the agency that uses the intelligence and makes arrests against suspects on our soil. We can go back and fourth quoting officials all day. It doesn't prove anything.

    Find me an interview or a statement by an interrogator who knows how these techniques work and says they work. You will not find one. No cop, agent, CIA officer, will tell you that these techniques work, because they don't. Political level people like directors/assistant directors hear what they want to hear, and then that's what they say to the public.
    Last edited by Gargantuan; 05-13-11 at 12:21 AM.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    You can expect a lot of silence over this. No one wants to admit how god damn wrong they were.
    The silence is probably a result of this being published in the Guardian.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    You can expect a lot of silence over this. No one wants to admit how god damn wrong they were.
    Waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation techniques didn't provide the intelligence used to find Osama bin Laden, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) insists.
    McCain: Torture did not lead to bin Laden | The Raw Story
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials." In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture. Speaking in English, Mohammed "seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group's plans, ideology and operatives," said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. "He'd even use a chalkboard at times."

    These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its "preeminent source" on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques. "KSM, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate or incomplete," according to newly unclassified portions of a 2004 report by the CIA's then-inspector general released Monday by the Justice Department. The debate over the effectiveness of subjecting detainees to psychological and physical pressure is in some ways irresolvable, because it is impossible to know whether less coercive methods would have achieved the same result. But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate.

    One former U.S. official with detailed knowledge of how the interrogations were carried out said Mohammed, like several other detainees, seemed to have decided that it was okay to stop resisting after he had endured a certain amount of pressure. "Once the harsher techniques were used on [detainees], they could be viewed as having done their duty to Islam or their cause, and their religious principles would ask no more of them," said the former official, who requested anonymity because the events are still classified. "After that point, they became compliant. Obviously, there was also an interest in being able to later say, 'I was tortured into cooperating.'" Mohammed described plans to strike targets in Saudi Arabia, East Asia and the United States after the Sept. 11 attacks, including using a network of Pakistanis "to target gas stations, railroad tracks, and the Brooklyn bridge in New York." Cross-referencing material from different detainees, and leveraging information from one to extract more detail from another, the CIA and FBI went on to round up operatives both in the United States and abroad. "Detainees in mid-2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals -- many of who we had never heard of before -- that al-Qaeda deemed suitable for Western operations," according to the CIA summary.
    How a Detainee Became An Asset - washingtonpost.com

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Mindlessly reposting things we've all read and that actually proves nothing doesn't really move us forward. I'm just saying. . . .

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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