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Thread: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I'd say by the age of 5 I knew it was wrong to hurt other people. Brain washed or not, a 12 year old isn't stupid. They have the ability to make a differentiation between whether it's okay to kill or not, regardless of the justification. He's just as guilty as those who brainwashed him.
    Are you freaking kidding me? Funny thing is most kids by that age don't know yet what is right or wrong actually learn some psychology their brains are still developing so in a sense they really don't understand the ramifications of their action. At age twelve, I didn't understand most things around the world and I bet that twelve year old never understood thing at that age either. Hell my sister at age twelve didn't understand stuff like that because she was just a kid.
    Last edited by RyrineaHaruno; 04-26-11 at 02:23 PM.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by RyrineaHaruno View Post
    Or you freaking kidding me? Funny thing is most kids by that age don't know yet what is right or wrong actually learn some psychology their brains are still developing so in ascen t they really don't understand the ramifications of their action. At age twelve I didn't understand most things around the world.
    I've studied early childhood development quite thoroughly in preparation for a career teaching children under the age of 7. Having satisfied all but the last year of my degree requirement, which is all student teaching, I can tell you that equates to over 40 credit hours of classwork revolving around child development.

    The ability to empathize develops between ages 3 and 4. This is the ability that leads into our ability to understand right and wrong. It allows the child to understand that if it hurts when Jimmy pinches them, it must hurt Jimmy to be pinched as well. That naturally developed sense of empathy, if fostered by environmental exposure and social conditioning, will lead to a very basic concept of right and wrong (i.e., if pinching is wrong because it hurts, then hitting and poking and killing are wrong because they hurt).

    It isn't a perfect understanding, but in more than 90% of normally developing children, it exists by age 4-5. So yeah, at 5 I knew it was wrong to hurt somebody. As do most children.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I've studied early childhood development quite thoroughly in preparation for a career teaching children under the age of 7. Having satisfied all but the last year of my degree requirement, which is all student teaching, I can tell you that equates to over 40 credit hours of classwork revolving around child development.

    The ability to empathize develops between ages 3 and 4. This is the ability that leads into our ability to understand right and wrong. It allows the child to understand that if it hurts when Jimmy pinches them, it must hurt Jimmy to be pinched as well. That naturally developed sense of empathy, if fostered by environmental exposure and social conditioning, will lead to a very basic concept of right and wrong (i.e., if pinching is wrong because it hurts, then hitting and poking and killing are wrong because they hurt).

    It isn't a perfect understanding, but in more than 90% of normally developing children, it exists by age 4-5. So yeah, at 5 I knew it was wrong to hurt somebody. As do most children.
    in this you are absolutely correct.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    So what methods are acceptable then? Throw out torture, throw out a polite little chat, and where are we? We call them in for questioning, they say nothing, we release them. We capture and interrogate people every day in this country. They aren't plastering every person they talk to on every news website known to man, but it happens. If we don't get answers then what? Do we stand around with our hands in our pockets and hope? Do we "wait and see" and watch 7 different attacks against US civilians take place over the course of 8 years before we do anything to try and be preemptive?

    It's funny...people say Bush had the intelligence to act prior to 9/11, but that he didn't do anything. Now people are saying that there aren't instances were thousands or millions of Americans are at risk, and finding the right person w/the right info as fast as possible is absolutely necessary.
    you're still making the same either / or fallacious comparison. And yes, we do interrogate people everyday here, and we do so without torture, and actually get information. We also don't lock people up without sufficient evidence, or without adhereing to rule of law. We do it properly and manage.

    As for the Bush strawman, we knew about the terrorist in this country and their plans, but what stopped action was not Bush, but the fact that the CIA and the FBI didn't talk to each other. All we needed to do to prevent 9/11 or such an attack was to let them talk to each other. During the 9/11 hearings all sides admitted that there was no one we could have killed before hand, or any country we could have invaded that would have prevented 9/11. All we needed was open communication.

    This means everything else was largely an overreaction, excessive, and in the case of invadinag, reckless and costly. However, this is about rule of law and what our values are.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    no way the bounty hunters turned in innocent individuals using bogus claims in order to realize personal enrichment
    [/sarcasm]

    no way to discern who are truly terrorists from the innocents wrongly made pawns, due to the absence of transparency
    [/NO sarcasm]

    and we see that the slippery slope we have constructed has become quite slippery, indeed. now the UN representative is unable to observe bradley manning, an American prisoner ... potentially being subjected to inhumane conditions

    i can understand the lemmings having no problem doing and believing as they are told; they are without the ability to think for themselves. what is of huge concern is that so many otherwise thoughtful American citizens are so cavalier about the unjust way the USA is behaving
    our nation has traded away truth for secrecy
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    in this you are absolutely correct.
    One reason why torturing someone often hurts the person doing the torturing is that they know right from wrong, and cannot always rationalize away the harm they do to another human being.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    you're still making the same either / or fallacious comparison. And yes, we do interrogate people everyday here, and we do so without torture, and actually get information. We also don't lock people up without sufficient evidence, or without adhereing to rule of law. We do it properly and manage.

    As for the Bush strawman, we knew about the terrorist in this country and their plans, but what stopped action was not Bush, but the fact that the CIA and the FBI didn't talk to each other. All we needed to do to prevent 9/11 or such an attack was to let them talk to each other. During the 9/11 hearings all sides admitted that there was no one we could have killed before hand, or any country we could have invaded that would have prevented 9/11. All we needed was open communication.

    This means everything else was largely an overreaction, excessive, and in the case of invadinag, reckless and costly. However, this is about rule of law and what our values are.
    You keep calling up "rule of law" but you're missing one HUGE point. Our consitution and thus the basis for all laws in this country does not extend to enemy combatants, non-citizens, terroristis, prisoners of war, etc. They are not bound by our federal laws and therefore are not bound to be tried in federal courts. Military tribunals are the only LEGAL (i.e. "rule of law" qualified) course of action for these people. That said, military prisons are the appropriate holding pen for these people. All of THAT said, sometimes innocents get caught up. It's sad, it sucks, but it happens. If 1 bad guy is stopped for ever 4 innocents who are detained temporarily then at least we got rid of 1 bad guy. ....because these aren't normal "bad guys". These are "i will kill myself if it means killing you" kind of bad guys.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    You keep calling up "rule of law" but you're missing one HUGE point. Our consitution and thus the basis for all laws in this country does not extend to enemy combatants, non-citizens, terroristis, prisoners of war, etc. They are not bound by our federal laws and therefore are not bound to be tried in federal courts. Military tribunals are the only LEGAL (i.e. "rule of law" qualified) course of action for these people. That said, military prisons are the appropriate holding pen for these people. All of THAT said, sometimes innocents get caught up. It's sad, it sucks, but it happens. If 1 bad guy is stopped for ever 4 innocents who are detained temporarily then at least we got rid of 1 bad guy. ....because these aren't normal "bad guys". These are "i will kill myself if it means killing you" kind of bad guys.
    It doesn't ahve to. It extends to us and how we behave. We fall under rule of law. It isn't just a ruloe for tose captured, but a rule on how we behave. Our behavior isn't just thrown out the window. We fall under laws. We broke all kinds of laws when we tortured, when we held people without any due process for years, when we tried to get away with having no process.

    And it must be stated, everyone we have held, tortured and hold are not the bad guys. Because we ignored rule of law, we did bad things to nnocent people. And this is who rule of law is intended to protect, the innocent.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    You keep calling up "rule of law" but you're missing one HUGE point. Our consitution and thus the basis for all laws in this country does not extend to enemy combatants, non-citizens, terroristis, prisoners of war, etc. They are not bound by our federal laws and therefore are not bound to be tried in federal courts. Military tribunals are the only LEGAL (i.e. "rule of law" qualified) course of action for these people. That said, military prisons are the appropriate holding pen for these people. All of THAT said, sometimes innocents get caught up. It's sad, it sucks, but it happens. If 1 bad guy is stopped for ever 4 innocents who are detained temporarily then at least we got rid of 1 bad guy. ....because these aren't normal "bad guys". These are "i will kill myself if it means killing you" kind of bad guys.
    You really have no idea what the constitution is about do you? It's principles that apply to all men under the jurisdiction of the US. Read some Locke before you go off mouthing about what the Constitution is about.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    You keep calling up "rule of law" but you're missing one HUGE point. Our consitution and thus the basis for all laws in this country does not extend to enemy combatants, non-citizens, terroristis, prisoners of war, etc. They are not bound by our federal laws and therefore are not bound to be tried in federal courts. Military tribunals are the only LEGAL (i.e. "rule of law" qualified) course of action for these people. That said, military prisons are the appropriate holding pen for these people. All of THAT said, sometimes innocents get caught up. It's sad, it sucks, but it happens. If 1 bad guy is stopped for ever 4 innocents who are detained temporarily then at least we got rid of 1 bad guy. ....because these aren't normal "bad guys". These are "i will kill myself if it means killing you" kind of bad guys.
    my understanding is that all who are within the USA or its territories are subject to the Constitution and the federal law which followed it, excepting only those diplomats who are here in a capacity to represent their own nations, such as embassy personnel and those foreign members/staff of the UN

    would you please point the provision of the Constitution/federal law which stipulates that the laws of our nation do not flow to non-citizens
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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