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Thread: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I sitll would have shot the kid, if it meant saving someones life. and "those people" are the types that are in GITMO.
    I think some liberals have an image in their minds of Bush and Cheney sitting in the Oval Office, rubbing their hands together and giggling at the thought of innocent children locked up at Gitmo.

    It's not much different than the school lunch program thing where Republicans are supposedly ripping plates of food away from children, or the social security thing where Republicans supposedly want to force old people to eat dog food and die of disease.
    Last edited by American; 04-26-11 at 01:39 PM.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by RyrineaHaruno View Post
    Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison | World news | The Guardian

    Here is the file with the fifteen year old boy that was a kidnap victim

    I'm not shocked that these people would "interrogate" children. People that supported in keeping this prison are sick and I hate that Obama is keeping it open. Yeah, lets keep open a prison were children were interrogated for being terrorist
    So it appears we have been detaining the innocent and releasing the guilty. Now if only there was some tried and tested method determining guilt that dated back to 1215.........

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    They're uneducated nutjobs from a third-world hellhole, not supervillains. How are they any more dangerous than a murderer or rapist when in prison?
    Most murders and rapists in prison in the US aren't directly responsible for the murders of thousands of people. They aren't typically willing to strap explosives to themselves and march into a crowded area to kil themselves and civilians. They aren't adamantly and steadfastly dedicated to the killing of as many non-muslims as possible. There is a difference between a serial murderer and a mass murderer; a difference between a derangement and an extremist, radicalist belief in the necessary death of thousands; a difference between mental instability and indoctrinated hate.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    They're uneducated nutjobs from a third-world hellhole, not supervillains. How are they any more dangerous than a murderer or rapist when in prison?
    Also, rapists and murders don't typically try to recruit new members to the cause; these men at Gitmo very much do.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I think some liberals have an image in their minds of Bush and Cheney sitting in the Oval Office, rubbing their hands together and giggling at the thought of innocent children locked up at Gitmo.

    It's not much different than the school lunch program thing where Republicans are supposedly ripping plates of food away from children, or the social security thing where Republicans supposedly want to force old people to eat dog food and die of disease.
    Well according to most accounts its more a case of general sloppyness and incompetency then malice*. People where detained in a incredibly chaotic manner, often by local mercenaries who where paid by the head (see Mozam Begg), and innocent people where detained. If, however we did ever see anyone genuinely malicious in the White House then we should bear in mind that we have now set a precedence that those they command can detain and torture anyone they want indefinetly , anywhere in the world and not have to answer to anyone. Am I the only one who finds this absolutely terrifying?

    * Heres a good explanation by one of the lawyers working for the detanees http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6PSmBiWyIo
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 04-26-11 at 01:51 PM.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You would be wrong. Nothing justifies not adhereing to rule of law. Nothing justifies risking harming innocent people. We're a noble and brave people. We should not be so scared that we become more like that which we fight than our better self.
    Nothing? EVER?

    So when we get intelligence that an attack on thousands or millions is imminent and all the intelligence points to one guy (who may or may not know anything), we should ask him politely to have a chat over tea the next time he's in town? Real life threats call for hard decisions. Sometimes we can't snuggle and drink hot cocoa on the lake shores with suspects.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by RyrineaHaruno View Post
    Um he was in fact a child solider that was brain washed by people by law they shouldn't be in jail for they don't know what is right or wrong Revered since they are in fact only twelve years old.
    I'd say by the age of 5 I knew it was wrong to hurt other people. Brain washed or not, a 12 year old isn't stupid. They have the ability to make a differentiation between whether it's okay to kill or not, regardless of the justification. He's just as guilty as those who brainwashed him.
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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Nothing? EVER?

    So when we get intelligence that an attack on thousands or millions is imminent and all the intelligence points to one guy (who may or may not know anything), we should ask him politely to have a chat over tea the next time he's in town? Real life threats call for hard decisions. Sometimes we can't snuggle and drink hot cocoa on the lake shores with suspects.
    Im not sure how exactly terrorists could mount an attack on millions of people but leaving that aside are there any cases you can point too, in which torture has prevented an attack? You cant just say that policy X must be enforced or something terrible will happen without providing evidence. There must be a limit to this line of argument. Taking this method to the extreme the result would be something like 'We must legalize marijuana to prevent sand people from planting nuclear weapons deep below the surface of the earth' You cant provide evidence, yet you cant say with absolute certainly that sand people are not trying to blow up the earth from the inside, and blowing up the earth from the inside sounds scary. So we are left with the choice of either accepting these claims blindly as long as they are frightening enough or we can ask for evidence.
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 04-26-11 at 02:13 PM.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Nothing? EVER?

    So when we get intelligence that an attack on thousands or millions is imminent and all the intelligence points to one guy (who may or may not know anything), we should ask him politely to have a chat over tea the next time he's in town? Real life threats call for hard decisions. Sometimes we can't snuggle and drink hot cocoa on the lake shores with suspects.
    Since when has that ever happened? First, you'd have to have that information, and have the right person who could actually give you that information. It's not realistic to think that would ever happen. It is also too easy to fool us with misinformation. They would only have to delay. And if we had the wrong guy, which is much more likely, we have wasted time and effort to our detriment. Nearly all studies have concluded that torture is the least effective method for gaining information. It is great for getting confessions, as even the innocent will confess, but not reliable at getting information.

    And it is a false choice between torturing and just asking nice. Ever hear of the either / or fallacy? Any time someone gives you only two choices, it's a fair bet they are trying to stack the deck by making one of those choice one no would ever choose. It's poor reasoning.

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    Re: Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Since when has that ever happened? First, you'd have to have that information, and have the right person who could actually give you that information. It's not realistic to think that would ever happen. It is also too easy to fool us with misinformation. They would only have to delay. And if we had the wrong guy, which is much more likely, we have wasted time and effort to our detriment. Nearly all studies have concluded that torture is the least effective method for gaining information. It is great for getting confessions, as even the innocent will confess, but not reliable at getting information.

    And it is a false choice between torturing and just asking nice. Ever hear of the either / or fallacy? Any time someone gives you only two choices, it's a fair bet they are trying to stack the deck by making one of those choice one no would ever choose. It's poor reasoning.
    So what methods are acceptable then? Throw out torture, throw out a polite little chat, and where are we? We call them in for questioning, they say nothing, we release them. We capture and interrogate people every day in this country. They aren't plastering every person they talk to on every news website known to man, but it happens. If we don't get answers then what? Do we stand around with our hands in our pockets and hope? Do we "wait and see" and watch 7 different attacks against US civilians take place over the course of 8 years before we do anything to try and be preemptive?

    It's funny...people say Bush had the intelligence to act prior to 9/11, but that he didn't do anything. Now people are saying that there aren't instances were thousands or millions of Americans are at risk, and finding the right person w/the right info as fast as possible is absolutely necessary.
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