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Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigation"

Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

j-mac said:
We are a soverign country. We don't bow to America hating world opinion. Well, at least we didn't use to...With the liar n chief in office now who knows.....


j-mac
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Sorry... but... what is that? What kind of response is that? It adds nothing to the dialog.

Yes, we are sovereign... as is Libya. We want our sovereignty protected. Wouldn't cotton much to France coming over and deciding it wants any of our natural resources. Sure, they couldn't do it now... but they could have easily sat back and watched the Brits and colonists wipe each other out then come in and clean up... Point is... precedent, morals, honor, rule of law, ethics... these things are what makes America great, not the size or capability of it's military.

America was beloved the world over for nearly 200 years.. now the term "America hating" is in common use... you have to ask yourself, honestly... why?

Because we have had liars in chief of all stripes over the last century, we have attempted to shape the world to our vision... eventually that's going to piss off the rest of the world as it strives to achieve American standards of living.

The ignorant, puffed chest tough guy blustering was cute a decade ago.. now it's past passe and now nearing dangerous proportions. Here is the problem, and your problem... Party before country rhetoric that vilifies your fellow countrymen to advance an agenda. Politics isn't football, it's not a team sport... and if it were, the ONLY patriotic definition of teams should forever be, We the People vs Government. Period.

Before you go on too much about liars, you should do some reading about the entire political history of the neocon players. All 40 years of it.

This post has some good starting points for you... http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...-criminal-investigation-3.html#post1059431838
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

Occam's Razor said:
Sorry... but... what is that? What kind of response is that? It adds nothing to the dialog.

Yes, we are sovereign... as is Libya. We want our sovereignty protected. Wouldn't cotton much to France coming over and deciding it wants any of our natural resources. Sure, they couldn't do it now... but they could have easily sat back and watched the Brits and colonists wipe each other out then come in and clean up... Point is... precedent, morals, honor, rule of law, ethics... these things are what makes America great, not the size or capability of it's military.

America was beloved the world over for nearly 200 years.. now the term "America hating" is in common use... you have to ask yourself, honestly... why?

Because we have had liars in chief of all stripes over the last century, we have attempted to shape the world to our vision... eventually that's going to piss off the rest of the world as it strives to achieve American standards of living.

The ignorant, puffed chest tough guy blustering was cute a decade ago.. now it's past passe and now nearing dangerous proportions. Here is the problem, and your problem... Party before country rhetoric that vilifies your fellow countrymen to advance an agenda. Politics isn't football, it's not a team sport... and if it were, the ONLY patriotic definition of teams should forever be, We the People vs Government. Period.

Before you go on too much about liars, you should do some reading about the entire political history of the neocon players. All 40 years of it.

This post has some good starting points for you... http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...-criminal-investigation-3.html#post1059431838
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Ok, I don't disagree with everything you posted here. We have certianly had our own problems, and Party's are quickly revealing themselves equally faulty. On that we agree. But if you are making the case that we should just be the open checkbook, and force that the rest of the world calls on when they need help, then when that help is done they go back to demonizing us, and being despots then we disagree.

See this reminds me of that answer Obama gave when asked about American Exceptionalism, and his answer was that we are exceptional just like the French believe in French exceptionalism, and the Greeks in Greek exceptionalism....etc.

Very weak man.

j-mac
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

Councilman said:
They also for get that Saddam himself said before he was hung that he felt he had too mislead the World about him having WMDs to keep Iran from another invasion.
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That right there is enough to warrant an investigation. Saddam essentially told the world on his death bed that he lied about the significance of his weapons program in order to deter invasion from a neighbor enemy, Iran. So, if the evidence before the Iraq War clearly indicated there was no weapons of the caliber Sec. of State Powell warned the world about before the U.N. Security Counsel and here it is every independent investigation into the matter verified the Saddam was telling the truth which he reiterated before he was put to death, does that not point to wrong-doing on the part of the former President even when he himself also admitted they never found they type and caliber of weapons they were looking for?

Now I have made it very clear that I believe Obama if a worthless lying fool, and I have called for him to be charged for violating his oath of off as it relates to Article 4 Sec. 4 of the Constitution...
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Exactly how so? And for those who don't know what Art 4, Sect 4 says:

Section 4 - Republican government

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
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You'd have to point to specifics where any State has been denied the ability to form or retain a representative government by the federal government and has not been provided equal protect by the same. Unless you misquoted the wrong article, I don't see that any of this has happened in this country. Egypt, Syria, Lybia, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia...definitely. But not here in the U.S.

Try again...
But what I wish for now is that people stop trying to change facts. In this case I have to assume the only reason we never heard from this author on this before was book sales.

You can read about Saddam Bluffing about WMDs here from CNN:CNN.com - Transcripts
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A-typical...deny facts and turn the issue against the messenger and label him a fame whore just because he wrote about that tells the truth on the matter. Look, all you have to do is search the Web for Iraq WNDs and read every news article, every investigative report by both independent agencies or our own government and they'll all pretty much say the same thing. Saddam didn't have WMDs of the caliber we were led to believe existed leading up to and throughout the Iraq War. Only those who choose to believe the Bush/Cheney lie because like them they just can't bring themselves to accept the truth are the ones who have a problem with this issue. Nobody's trying to chance facts. You just refuse to believe the truth that the former President took this country to war under false pretenses.

To put this in perspective, any time a sitting President has battle plans drawn up and revised before he's even laid out his rationale for going to war with any nation is a clear indication of what his intension are.
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

j-mac said:
Ok, I don't disagree with everything you posted here. We have certianly had our own problems, and Party's are quickly revealing themselves equally faulty. On that we agree. But if you are making the case that we should just be the open checkbook, and force that the rest of the world calls on when they need help, then when that help is done they go back to demonizing us, and being despots then we disagree.
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Nope, not making that case at all...

See this reminds me of that answer Obama gave when asked about American Exceptionalism, and his answer was that we are exceptional just like the French believe in French exceptionalism, and the Greeks in Greek exceptionalism....etc.

Very weak man.

j-mac
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Actually... it's very insightful. He's dead on. There was nothing exceptional about Rome, or Greece, or the French... well... anyway...

There is nothing exceptional about American's aside from access to abundant natural resources, a glimmer of self determination and a decimated industrial base globally after WWII. We certainly aren't now... dumbed down, fat, lazy, dependent... of course that's a broad stroke... but becoming more the reality by the day.
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

Occam's Razor said:
Nope, not making that case at all...



Actually... it's very insightful. He's dead on. There was nothing exceptional about Rome, or Greece, or the French... well... anyway...

There is nothing exceptional about American's aside from access to abundant natural resources, a glimmer of self determination and a decimated industrial base globally after WWII. We certainly aren't now... dumbed down, fat, lazy, dependent... of course that's a broad stroke... but becoming more the reality by the day.
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You have my pity.

j-mac
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

j-mac said:
Don't ya just love how the hard lefties side with this nations enemies at any turn. Dhimmi's.


j-mac
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Really? You really want to go there? Just because the guy happens to be of Middle-Eastern decent suddenly he's our enemy? Why must the hardline Right constantly lump people in the same basket?

The man was one of the U.N. inspectors who inspected Iraqi weapons facilities. You'd think that if anyone knew what the hell was going on over there prior to the fighting it would be him! Geez!!

But it's not that I take his word at face value. It is the fact that I've read the news articles, the special investigative reports and heard the words uttered from GWBush's own lips - they didn't find the weapons! The fighting has all but stopped; U.S. special forces are still in Iraq and to date there are STILL NO WEAPONS FOUND! The facts are slapping you in the face the a pimp b**ch slapping one of his whores and yet you still cling to the lie after the lie...

"Oh, the evidence was faulty. We were told differently."

You're the President of the United States. You have all kinds of daily intelligence reports coming across your desk along with daily briefings not to mention our government intelligences agencies share intelligence with other friendly nations. If you receive reports via secret memo telling you that the intelligency you're leaning on to go to war is faulty and you don't heed it and go to war anyway, you've just committed an act that cost hundreds if not thousands of lives needlessly! To me, you've violated the People's trust. That in itself is worth investigating!!! Let the facts fall where they made. If found innocent, no harm no foul. He's vindicated and we can all put the matter to rest. If not...
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

Objective Voice said:
Muddy Creek said:
For what? What has he done that would warrant being investigated for war crimes?
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He has bombed Libya and Libya is even less of a threat than Iraq was. Actually, no threat! He has splattered WMD (DU) all over Libya and he has failed to prosecute GWBUSH for torture. It's just another slimy OIL deal.
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Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

CensoredBacon said:
Or maybe they are just a large enough religious group to have crazy out croppings.

If not, than baptists should openly accept Westboro as one of their own.
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You obviously don't know a thing about the Muslim Brotherhood.
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

j-mac said:
You have my pity.

j-mac
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Those with poor self or poor nation esteem must always be told how great they are. :coffeepap
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

Occam's Razor said:
Actually... it's very insightful. He's dead on. There was nothing exceptional about Rome, or Greece, or the French... well... anyway...

There is nothing exceptional about American's aside from access to abundant natural resources, a glimmer of self determination and a decimated industrial base globally after WWII. We certainly aren't now... dumbed down, fat, lazy, dependent... of course that's a broad stroke... but becoming more the reality by the day.
Click to expand...

It is a broad stoke and less true than too many believe. Most Americans work hard daily. Many are bright. Our biggest problem, and it's a social one, is that we promote dumb as being better than education. Too often we say I want the guy who doesn't anything to run things. I've had children tell me that you don't want to be too smart, as it is uncool to be smart. I always remind them that I doubt Bill Gates would trade his success for their stupidity. And that they shoudl be nice to nerd as they'll be working for one someday if they change their perception.
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

Councilman said:
First let me make it clear that I was not in favor of going to War in Iraq and especially not before the Afghanistan war was won.

Who knew they didn't go into it to win, only for fun and profit, which goes on still today.

However I have to say that a great number of people forget there was a huge warehouse full of Artillery shells laden with Poison Gas, and that Saddam had used poison gas on his own people.

They also for get that Saddam himself said before he was hung that he felt he had too mislead the World about him having WMDs to keep Iran from another invasion.


So many radicals have been brainwashed by the Leftist to be hateful they are always wanting President Bush jailed for anything that comes up.

Now I have made it very clear that I believe Obama if a worthless lying fool, and I have called for him to be charged for violating his oath of off as it relates to Article 4 Sec. 4 of the Constitution, but I never said to jail him. I have said th=at there needs to be a new law forcing every candidate for the office to prove they are leagal to run, and if found to have lied, then Jailed.

But what I wish for now is that people stop trying to change facts. In this case I have to assume the only reason we never heard from this author on this before was book sales.

You can read about Saddam Bluffing about WMDs here from CNN:CNN.com - Transcripts
Click to expand...

Like another poster said, that alone should warrant an investigation.... That sort of chicken game makes sense to me, and many analysts have pointed out that Iraq helped to balance the powers in the ME...

So, if this is true, why the **** would our intelligence be so ignorant on such important and common sense politics in the ME... Why did our intelligence goof so bad? That is ridiculous and should be investigated.
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

Occam's Razor said:
I don't even know where to start with this... The ignorance surrounding this "debate", on both sides, is astounding. How sad that America, land of the free and home of the brave has morphed into land of the sound-byte media and home of the willfully ignorant.

All the evidence is there, it lies in full view under the thinest of veils. First, let me say that ignorance of the facts is rarely a good legal defense.



To believe this, one must take it as an absolute. That is to say, that short of 100% certainty any decision on action is acceptable. Or... That Bush and Co. clapped their hands over the ears, shut their eyes tight and loudly chanted LALALALALALALALALALA, I CAN"T HEAR YOU when presented with UN inspection intelligence and dead steady US intelligence going back 12 years. Mind you, we had carte blanche to overfly the country, and did so daily with some of the most sophisticated technology on the planet. More than capable of making detailed assessments of activities.



And you don't see a contradiction to your first statement?

How is it that overwhelming evidence and intelligence existed from professional non political agencies existed that Iraq was not a threat, and yet Bush and company remained perplexed to the point of believing with conviction the opposite was "true"?

This is where it gets interesting...

Ever heard of Team B?
How about the "noble lie?

These are the two primary tools of the NeoCons, and they have been in play and ever refined since 1976 following the Halloween Massacre which effectively overthrew President Ford's cabinet.

If you are ignorant of who and what Team B was/is, here is some suggested reading...

"Intelligence Community Experiment in Competitive Analysis- Soviet Strategic Objectives: Report of Team B" (PDF). National Archives. [PDF file]

Cahn, Anne H. (September 1998). Killing Detente: The Right Attacks the CIA. Pennsylvania State University Press. ISBN 0-271-01791-0.

Gervasi, Tom (October 1986). The Myth of Soviet Military Supremacy. W W Norton & Co Inc. ISBN 0-393-01776-1.

Korb, Lawrence J. (August 18, 2004). "It's Time to Bench 'Team B'". Center for American Progress.

Goodman, Melvin A. (July 23, 2003). "As a CIA analyst, I've seen distortions of intelligence before". The Progressive.

Husain, Khurram (November/December 2003). "Neocons: The men behind the curtain" . Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists 59 (06): 62–71. doi:10.2968/059006013.


Here is the upshot...

Team B was an independent, ad hoc "competitive intelligence assessment" exercise designed to challenge the official Soviet threat assessment with one goal in mind, to dismantle détente. This was accomplished by grossly over estimating soviet capabilities, with absurd assertions. For example, the reason they stated the the CIA was unable to detect new Russian military hardware, wasn't because the country was in economic chaos, but because their systems were so advanced, they were undetectable... with no evidence beyond the claim that "they knew the Russian mindset". Seriously!

Here is the kicker... they were caught in ever lie, and they admitted to these lies after the Soviet fall.. justifying the noble lie by pointing to this event as vindication of those lies, America was now the sole super power... what else mattered? With the success of that exercise, Team B went to work supporting an agenda for a massive arms build-up, one that helped push the country into deficit spending and recession. When the USSR fell apart under the weight of it's own failings, the neocons believed that they were responsible, which emboldened them...

Here we have the blueprint, the framework for all subsequent attempts to advance the neocon agenda. Which, as a side note, is two fold; to secure US position as sole superpower for the next century, creating a PaxAmericana, and to reignite the moral fiber the held together our society and heal the wounds left from the leftist counter culture. Both could be accomplished most quickly, not by using reason and honesty, but by creating larger than life evils and threats, if curiously vague, using lies and misinformation. It served them in the 80's in the arms build-up, it served them in the 90's to attempt to cripple the Clinton administration, and blossomed in 2000s with an all neocon cabinet.

And we are to believe, with this kind of track record, that past claims of ignorance and later admissions of lies, full admission of the noble lie, the created myths of great good vs evil, the willingness to enter into evil to accomplish "good", men that call themselves "democratic revolutionaries" are to be taken at their word?

If the whole of our intellignece community had it right, or mostly right, over a twelve year period, with daily overflights of a country, where did the confusion come from? Why was there so much alleged handwringing over whether Iraq was a threat? It came from Team B. Wholly manufactured just as in every decade before. Here is a clue, independent intelligence analysis headed by members of a tight knit group of a powerful revolutionary faction will never result in accurate assessments, but rather support the agenda of that group at any cost, even if that means entering into evil (lying) to do so. Period. There was no question in official, professional, intel circles that Iraq was no threat.





Bull.... Flaws? No.. that is a euphamism for outright, bold faced lies. The "flaws" came only from Team B and a special assessment group set up in the pentagon headed by Wolfowitz. These flaws follow lockstep with the tactics employed in previous years, tactics unabashedly admitted to. To ask that these be viewed as flaws by anyone who knows their history, is asking to set aside knowledge and facts. Every credible intelligence agency raised doubts and outright dismissed the sources being used by Team B and the special intel team in the pentagon.



Bush made no judgement. The judgement was made long before Bush ever ran for president.



The only way one can claim that test is not met, is if one remains ignorant of the DETAILS and history of the men involved and their single minded, single tactic march to fulfill a 35 year agenda.



Shame Dr. E's "opinion" has more facts supporting it than Bush had in going to war... awfully inconvenient....
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Apparently other US Presidents were ignorant as well.
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

American said:
Apparently other US Presidents were ignorant as well.
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I honestly believe that the USA government thinks that we'll be bankrupt soon, and are gaining control of the energy we will need in the future, actually the energy that the military will need. Wars run on energy. I hope I'm wrong. We are controlling Iraq. We've got good control in ME. We want to operate the oil flow control valves worldwide. Don't get that confused with power to the people.
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

Occam's Razor said:
There is nothing exceptional about American's aside from access to abundant natural resources, a glimmer of self determination and a decimated industrial base globally after WWII. We certainly aren't now... dumbed down, fat, lazy, dependent... of course that's a broad stroke... but becoming more the reality by the day.
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Spouting a bunch anti American eurotrash dogma...lol

A great example of this is all the grief that France, Germany, and Russia gave us over the Iraq war. As it turns out, all three countries were involved in, what can only be termed, inappropriate back channel business dealings with Iraq. Of course they didn't want Saddam taken out, it's been bad for business! Most of the countries in Europe were at one time colonial powers. We have seen how France, etc. behave as "superpowers" through history, and it is very ugly stuff indeed. I submit that Europeans are frustrated by the fact that they are irreverent in geopolitics. There is no country in Europe besides maybe the UK (which is, ironically enough is our best friend over there) that can project power internationally. Europe's dissatisfaction with the United States is simply sour grapes, and nothing more. President Bush was a great leader for America. If he put the interests of America first, well too ****ing bad for the rest of the world. That's his job!

Now, keep whinning
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

ric27 said:
Spouting a bunch anti American eurotrash dogma...lol

A great example of this is all the grief that France, Germany, and Russia gave us over the Iraq war. As it turns out, all three countries were involved in, what can only be termed, inappropriate back channel business dealings with Iraq. Of course they didn't want Saddam taken out, it's been bad for business! Most of the countries in Europe were at one time colonial powers. We have seen how France, etc. behave as "superpowers" through history, and it is very ugly stuff indeed. I submit that Europeans are frustrated by the fact that they are irreverent(Did you mean irrelevant?) in geopolitics. There is no country in Europe besides maybe the UK (which is, ironically enough is our best friend over there) that can project power internationally. Europe's dissatisfaction with the United States is simply sour grapes, and nothing more. President Bush was a great leader for America. If he put the interests of America first, well too ****ing bad for the rest of the world. That's his job!

Now, keep whinning
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Wow... that was quite a rant. First, I'm not "whinning" (did you mean whining?) about anything...

Yes... there were back channel deals going on, but you confuse private interests with the government.. and then of course there is the little matter of the fact that there were no WMD, no plans for WMD... Oversimplifying a very complex and decade old situation to business deals kinda shows severe lack of understanding and details.

I agree with you that no colonial power in history, nor occupier has been a good thing for the indigenous people. Period. America included. Both as a colony and as a holder of foreign territories.

Either way... Your reply addressed neither the claim of American exceptionalism, nor the topic of the thread...

Bush a great leader? He and Mr. "Deficits don't matter" Cheney bankrupted this country, opened the defense accounts to a free for all under Mr. "We can't find $2 trillion" Rumsfeld. Did absolutely zero on terrorism for nine months, and then, instead of finishing the job in Afghanistan, he drops the ball and attacks a country we have bombed almost daily and had completely contained for twelve years at comparatively little cost...

Ya, great leader...

Oh... and by the way comrade, American's don't have leaders, and they should never be called such. They are elected public servants. The government exists at the pleasure of We the People.

Party before countrymen fake patriots piss me off!
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

Occam's Razor said:
Wow... that was quite a rant. First, I'm not "whinning" (did you mean whining?) about anything...

Yes... there were back channel deals going on, but you confuse private interests with the government.. and then of course there is the little matter of the fact that there were no WMD, no plans for WMD... Oversimplifying a very complex and decade old situation to business deals kinda shows severe lack of understanding and details.

I agree with you that no colonial power in history, nor occupier has been a good thing for the indigenous people. Period. America included. Both as a colony and as a holder of foreign territories.

Either way... Your reply addressed neither the claim of American exceptionalism, nor the topic of the thread...

Bush a great leader? He and Mr. "Deficits don't matter" Cheney bankrupted this country, opened the defense accounts to a free for all under Mr. "We can't find $2 trillion" Rumsfeld. Did absolutely zero on terrorism for nine months, and then, instead of finishing the job in Afghanistan, he drops the ball and attacks a country we have bombed almost daily and had completely contained for twelve years at comparatively little cost...

Ya, great leader...

Oh... and by the way comrade, American's don't have leaders, and they should never be called such. They are elected public servants. The government exists at the pleasure of We the People.

Party before countrymen fake patriots piss me off!
Click to expand...

I suspect you got it from "moveon.org", the self appointed guardians of truth in our time....

Only they know what's REALLY going on in Iraq. ;)
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

Occam's Razor said:
Wow... that was quite a rant. First, I'm not "whinning" (did you mean whining?) about anything...

Yes... there were back channel deals going on, but you confuse private interests with the government.. and then of course there is the little matter of the fact that there were no WMD, no plans for WMD... Oversimplifying a very complex and decade old situation to business deals kinda shows severe lack of understanding and details.

I agree with you that no colonial power in history, nor occupier has been a good thing for the indigenous people. Period. America included. Both as a colony and as a holder of foreign territories.

Either way... Your reply addressed neither the claim of American exceptionalism, nor the topic of the thread...

Bush a great leader? He and Mr. "Deficits don't matter" Cheney bankrupted this country, opened the defense accounts to a free for all under Mr. "We can't find $2 trillion" Rumsfeld. Did absolutely zero on terrorism for nine months, and then, instead of finishing the job in Afghanistan, he drops the ball and attacks a country we have bombed almost daily and had completely contained for twelve years at comparatively little cost...

Ya, great leader...

Oh... and by the way comrade, American's don't have leaders, and they should never be called such. They are elected public servants. The government exists at the pleasure of We the People.

Party before countrymen fake patriots piss me off!
Click to expand...

The govt is ALWAYS involved in defense sales....even in the US. So you can bet your ass that the French govt was up to its eyeballs in those deals.
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

American said:
The govt is ALWAYS involved in defense sales....even in the US. So you can bet your ass that the French govt was up to its eyeballs in those deals.
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Who said anything about defense or arms?

Are you really trying to say that France sold Saddam weapons? Really?

Hmmm.... what other types of businesses are there...

Any of you self proclaimed conservatives want to try sticking to the topic of the thread? Just curious....
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

ric27 said:
I suspect you got it from "moveon.org", the self appointed guardians of truth in our time....

Only they know what's REALLY going on in Iraq. ;)
Click to expand...

I don't visit political propaganda sites of any kind, right or left

And I'm not a lib... I'm an honest conservative... though a patriot first... in the truest, most literal sense of the word.
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

ric27 said:
I suspect you got it from "moveon.org", the self appointed guardians of truth in our time....

Only they know what's REALLY going on in Iraq. ;)
Click to expand...

Ohhh... one more thing... Truth is a joke. Truth is subjective, dependent on belief systems. Facts are facts regardless of what you believe.

You stick with the truth... I'll take facts every day.
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

SheWolf said:
Like another poster said, that alone should warrant an investigation.... That sort of chicken game makes sense to me, and many analysts have pointed out that Iraq helped to balance the powers in the ME...

So, if this is true, why the **** would our intelligence be so ignorant on such important and common sense politics in the ME... Why did our intelligence goof so bad? That is ridiculous and should be investigated.
Click to expand...

Oh good lord... does anyone go past the front page anymore?

It wasn't Our intelligence that got it wrong. The CIA, FBI, DIA and several others got it right. Consistently.

The so called intelligence apparatus that got it wrong was assembled by the neocons. Team B, which has admitted to so many "noble lies" over the years, it's ridiculous.

Ever heard of Team B?
How about the "noble lie?

These are the two primary tools of the NeoCons, and they have been in play and ever refined since 1976 following the Halloween Massacre which effectively overthrew President Ford's cabinet.

If you are ignorant of who and what Team B was/is, here is some suggested reading...

"Intelligence Community Experiment in Competitive Analysis- Soviet Strategic Objectives: Report of Team B" (PDF). National Archives. [PDF file]

Cahn, Anne H. (September 1998). Killing Detente: The Right Attacks the CIA. Pennsylvania State University Press. ISBN 0-271-01791-0.

Gervasi, Tom (October 1986). The Myth of Soviet Military Supremacy. W W Norton & Co Inc. ISBN 0-393-01776-1.

Korb, Lawrence J. (August 18, 2004). "It's Time to Bench 'Team B'". Center for American Progress.

Goodman, Melvin A. (July 23, 2003). "As a CIA analyst, I've seen distortions of intelligence before". The Progressive.

Husain, Khurram (November/December 2003). "Neocons: The men behind the curtain" . Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists 59 (06): 62–71. doi:10.2968/059006013.


Here is the upshot...

Team B was an independent, ad hoc "competitive intelligence assessment" exercise designed to challenge the official Soviet threat assessment with one goal in mind, to dismantle détente. This was accomplished by grossly over estimating soviet capabilities, with absurd assertions. For example, the reason they stated the the CIA was unable to detect new Russian military hardware, wasn't because the country was in economic chaos, but because their systems were so advanced, they were undetectable... with no evidence beyond the claim that "they knew the Russian mindset". Seriously!

Here is the kicker... they were caught in ever lie, and they admitted to these lies after the Soviet fall.. justifying the noble lie by pointing to this event as vindication of those lies, America was now the sole super power... what else mattered? With the success of that exercise, Team B went to work supporting an agenda for a massive arms build-up, one that helped push the country into deficit spending and recession. When the USSR fell apart under the weight of it's own failings, the neocons believed that they were responsible, which emboldened them...

Here we have the blueprint, the framework for all subsequent attempts to advance the neocon agenda. Which, as a side note, is two fold; to secure US position as sole superpower for the next century, creating a PaxAmericana, and to reignite the moral fiber the held together our society and heal the wounds left from the leftist counter culture. Both could be accomplished most quickly, not by using reason and honesty, but by creating larger than life evils and threats, if curiously vague, using lies and misinformation. It served them in the 80's in the arms build-up, it served them in the 90's to attempt to cripple the Clinton administration, and blossomed in 2000s with an all neocon cabinet.

The Office of Special Projects - Pentagon - Wolfowitz

Shortly after the 9/11 attacks, Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz create a secretive, ad hoc intelligence bureau within the Pentagon that they mockingly dub “The Cabal.” This small but influential group of neoconservatives is tasked with driving US foreign policy and intelligence reporting towards the goal of promoting the invasion of Iraq. To this end, the group—which later is folded into the slightly more official Office of Special Plans (OSP) (see 2002-2003)—gathers and interprets raw intelligence data for itself, refusing the participation of the experts in the CIA and DIA, and reporting, massaging, manipulating, and sometimes falsifying that information to suit their ends. [NEW YORKER, 5/12/2003] In October 2005, Larry Wilkerson, Secretary of State Colin Powell’s chief of staff, will say of the Cabal and the OSP, “What I saw was a cabal between the vice president of the United States, Richard Cheney, and the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, on critical issues that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made. Now it is paying the consequences of making those decisions in secret, but far more telling to me is America is paying the consequences.” [FINANCIAL TIMES, 10/20/2005]

So you see it was NOT Our intelligence that got it wrong, it was Our intel that was ignored for a private intel gathering cabal set up by the VP and high ranking neocon Defense personnel.
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

Occam's Razor said:
Ohhh... one more thing... Truth is a joke. Truth is subjective, dependent on belief systems. Facts are facts regardless of what you believe.

You stick with the truth... I'll take facts every day.
Click to expand...


Frankly I don't so much have a problem with how you are processing information. The issue I have with you boils down to where you are getting the "facts" you are using in your inductive reasoning process. It's a matter of garbage in, garbage out.
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

Occam's Razor said:
Who said anything about defense or arms?

Are you really trying to say that France sold Saddam weapons? Really?

Hmmm.... what other types of businesses are there...

Any of you self proclaimed conservatives want to try sticking to the topic of the thread? Just curious....
Click to expand...
You first.
 
Re: Former U.N. Nuclear Weapons Inspector: "GW Bush should face criminal investigati

ric27 said:
Frankly I don't so much have a problem with how you are processing information. The issue I have with you boils down to where you are getting the "facts" you are using in your inductive reasoning process. It's a matter of garbage in, garbage out.
Click to expand...

I cite and link much of the pertinent info. I wonder how often you do the same.

Most of this comes from living through it, and doing ten years of research into the fine point details of the lives and 40+ year careers of those calling themselves neocons. Much of that research material comes from their own words, white papers they have written, policy papers, their opinions... it's not hard to find, in fact, they are rather proud of their "democratic revolutionary" vision... their words, not mine.

lol... the issue I have with you, is that you come on like am emo reactionary kneejerker... Your first exchange with me was right out of the conservative network playbook for idiots. Dismiss the post with a MoveOn label... With no evidence... just your "feeling" that I must be a lefty.

I'm not... I'm one pissed off conservative. Pissed that a radical faction of the conservative party hijacked the long standing principles of my father and grandfather's party and made a joke of those values by paying them lip service while doing the opposite.

Let me put it to you this way... you can either join the conversation with meaningful discourse... or you can bluster playground taunts and look emo, petty, and stupid. The choice is yours. If you choose to continue using the new age conservative handbook for idiots... I'll not be responding to you further. Life is too short to waste time on people that label, kneejerk, sidetrack, derail, etc...

IF you'd like to take issue with anything I've written, be specific, and try using some cited sources of your own to refute the facts I present. Short of that... have a nice day.
 
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