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Labor Board Tells Boeing New Factory Breaks Law

sure you give them the same freedom to contribute and then end their rights to bargain collectively.

i'm not sure what this is suposed to mean. the Supreme Court Decision had nothing to do with whether or not the Federal Government (and 26 or so State governments) should continue to not collectively bargain with their employees.

During the last election, of the big money donors, all but the unions donated to the GOP

during the last election cycle, the big money donors were the unions. and it has been that way for some time.

As I said before, we abandon unions and worker's rights at our own peril.

yes. we will be at risk of having more effecient but less costly government. perish the thought.
 
i'm not sure what this is suposed to mean. the Supreme Court Decision had nothing to do with whether or not the Federal Government (and 26 or so State governments) should continue to not collectively bargain with their employees.

I never said the supreme court was busting unions. I said that given the passage of Citizens United with the GOP union busting that soon their will only be Corporations as the big doners. And all of the big money corporate donors were for the GOP in the last election.


during the last election cycle, the big money donors were the unions. and it has been that way for some time.

Your link there shows, if you add up the amounts from the top ten big doners, it was about evenly split between the Unions and Corporations, Now remove the spending limitations to Corporations just passed by the SC and remove unions from the picture, thanks to the GOP Governors and what do you end up with? One party rule.



yes. we will be at risk of having more effecient but less costly government. perish the thought.


Perhaps it is my German ancestory, but I do not think one party rule is as good a thing as you think it is.
 
I never said the supreme court was busting unions. I said that given the passage of Citizens United with the GOP union busting that soon their will only be Corporations as the big doners.

i sincerely doubt it; the public unions are nowhere near finished.

though it would be nice if they were. and then we can get politics out of business in order to make it unprofitable for business to get into politics.

And all of the big money corporate donors were for the GOP in the last election.

no, the chamber of commerce donated to the GOP in the last election. which isn't surprising - funding from business tends also towards those whom are predicted to win.

Your link there shows, if you add up the amounts from the top ten big doners, it was about evenly split between the Unions and Corporations

:lol: man, that thing is only the direct donations. but even within that - you're math is off. and if you include in the 2008 election... :lol:

Public-Employees Union Now Leads All Groups in Independent Election Outlays

The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees is now the biggest outside spender of the 2010 elections:

...The 1.6 million-member AFSCME is spending a total of $87.5 million on the elections after tapping into a $16 million emergency account to help fortify the Democrats' hold on Congress. Last week, AFSCME dug deeper, taking out a $2 million loan to fund its push. The group is spending money on television advertisements, phone calls, campaign mailings and other political efforts, helped by a Supreme Court decision that loosened restrictions on campaign spending.

"We're the big dog," said Larry Scanlon, the head of AFSCME's political operations.
"But we don't like to brag."...
 
i sincerely doubt it; the public unions are nowhere near finished.

They were already down to 11% of the population before they came under the recent attack by the GOP.

though it would be nice if they were. and then we can get politics out of business in order to make it unprofitable for business to get into politics.

Yes, the Germans didn't complain when their unions were dismantled either.



no, the chamber of commerce donated to the GOP in the last election. which isn't surprising - funding from business tends also towards those whom are predicted to win.

Its what brought Nazi Germany to power. Yeah!
 
They were already down to 11% of the population before they came under the recent attack by the GOP.

public union membership has been growing in the past few years, and is now a majority of the unionized workforce. (unions in the private sector have to 'produce', which is why they 'fail')

Yes, the Germans didn't complain when their unions were dismantled either.

ah yes. evil right wingers always dismantling unions. just like Hitler.

other famous rightwingeres who forcibly dismantled their unions, of course, include Lenin and Mao..... all three of them making the exact same argument that since "unions were now part of the government" they were unneeded.

Its what brought Nazi Germany to power. Yeah!

no, what brought Nazi Germany to power was facing off against unwilling and internally weak opponents who were unable to cope with her developments in Maneuver warfare.
 
public union membership has been growing in the past few years

No, you are wrong:

b2458_table1.ashx




ah yes. evil right wingers always dismantling unions. just like Hitler.


i don't see the left wingers signing on to the movement, do you?

other famous rightwingeres who forcibly dismantled their unions, of course, include Lenin and Mao..... all three of them making the exact same argument that since "unions were now part of the government" they were unneeded.

And you find this admirable?



no, what brought Nazi Germany to power was facing off against unwilling and internally weak opponents who were unable to cope with her developments in Maneuver warfare.

Are you talking about the people that did not protest when their unions were being dismantled?
 
No, you are wrong:

b2458_table1.ashx

no i am right because your chart only accounts for one year.

public union members are now a majority of union members and they have been growing over the past decade:

unions2.jpg


i don't see the left wingers signing on to the movement, do you?

And you find this admirable?

no, i find it indicative that the godwining of the public union issue by the left is utter mindless bunk.

Are you talking about the people that did not protest when their unions were being dismantled?

no, i am talking about what allowed Nazi Germany to move from a relatively weak and fractured nation to an empire spanning Europe.
 
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no i am right because your chart only accounts for one year.

public union members are now a majority of union members and they have been growing over the past decade:

unions2.jpg




no, i find it indicative that the godwining of the public union issue by the left is utter mindless bunk.



no, i am talking about what allowed Nazi Germany to move from a relatively weak and fractured nation to an empire spanning Europe.

Your sourceless chart is a projection, mine was from actual data up through 2010, and was prepared by the conservative Heritage Foundation for which there was a link provided. You know in order prevent copyright infringement, you are required to post a link to the site you copy items from.

Just sayin.................. Hate to see you get into trouble with this practice of yours.
 
Your sourceless chart is a projection

actually, you may have noticed how there is a little thing at the bottom that says "Source: BLS"

mine was from actual data up through 2010

yours was from 2009 to 2010, and mine is from a decade.

the fact is that the number of unionized public employees has been climbing for the past several years - for example, the past 10. your point that it slid by less than 2% in 2010 nonwithstanding.

Just sayin.................. Hate to see you get into trouble with this practice of yours.

just saying... you may want to start factchecking yourself before you make claims on here.
 
sure you give them the same freedom to contribute and then end their rights to bargain collectively. During the last election, of the big money donors, all but the unions donated to the GOP. Now remove the unions from the picture and what do you get? All the big money donors are for one party. I don't think I will be as fond of one party rule as you seem content to be.

As I said before, we abandon unions and worker's rights at our own peril.

So what you're saying is that the unions donated a billion bucks to Obama's re-election campaign already?
 
Catawba.

You lose.

You're drawing comparisons to Nazi Germany, and thus invoking Godwin's law.

Not to mention the fact that your comparisons are flat wrong, anyway, as is your historical perspective, but that's typical of people who frantically invoke the Nazis because they have nothing left to shoot.

Here's a clue:

"Collective bargaining" is a privelege legislated by state governments. If the state legislature decides that collective bargaining does not serve the interest of the people the legislature was elected to serve...ALL the friggin' people in the state, not just the thuggish unions...then the legislature is morally obligated to end the collective bargaining procedure.

Also, there's absolutely no reason goverment jobs must come encumbered with union membership. Not one. If a state employee wishes to join a union, let him. If state employee wishes to stay out of the union, that too his his RIGHT under the First Amendment.

In either case, under no circumstance should the state ever be the dues collector for the union. The union should expect its memmbers to donate their dues voluntarily or be dismissed from the union and whatever dubious benefits the union provides.

You ever hear any rumors that the United States used to be a free country?

Well, it will be freer when employees have the freedom to choose.
 
What is their freedom of association worth if when they choose unions, they are banned from doing so?

Boeing are breaking the law. Suck it up.
 
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Your sourceless chart is a projection, mine was from actual data up through 2010, and was prepared by the conservative Heritage Foundation for which there was a link provided. You know in order prevent copyright infringement, you are required to post a link to the site you copy items from.

Just sayin.................. Hate to see you get into trouble with this practice of yours.

then complain to a mod instead of whining in here.
 
Unions rights... unions rights... blah ****ing blah.

Corporations don't have a right to build a plant where they want? They have to build where unions tell them? Hire who unions tell them? Pay what unions tell them?

Two words.

**** that.
 
actually, you may have noticed how there is a little thing at the bottom that says "Source: BLS"



yours was from 2009 to 2010, and mine is from a decade.

the fact is that the number of unionized public employees has been climbing for the past several years - for example, the past 10. your point that it slid by less than 2% in 2010 nonwithstanding.



just saying... you may want to start factchecking yourself before you make claims on here.

unions1.jpg


February « 2010 « The Enterprise Blog

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If a source is not available online, is not free to the public (Lexis/Nexis, books, academic papers, etc), or requires registration to be accessed, then a comprehensive citation will suffice. Keep in mind that your position may be weakened if the original source is not easily accessible."
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Ex-Labor Board Chairman: Union-Backed Case Against Boeing 'Unprecedented' - FoxNews.com
The former chairman of the National Labor Relations Board told FoxNews.com that a board attorney's bid to stop Boeing from opening a production line at a non-union site in South Carolina is "unprecedented" and could have serious implications for companies looking to expand.

The comments Tuesday from Peter Schaumber add to the roiling debate over the complaint filed last week against the aerospace giant. NLRB's acting general counsel, taking up allegations from union workers at a Puget Sound plant in Washington state, had accused Boeing of violating federal labor law by moving to open a second 787 Dreamliner airplane production line in South Carolina.

Schaumber said the complaint is a big stretch and would mark a departure. He said that if the claim is upheld, it could jeopardize any company with unionized workers that wants to expand to a right-to-work state.

"It would be fair to say it's unprecedented," he said.

"The workers don't have any claim to the work," he said. "If the workers don't have any claim to the work, it wasn't retaliatory to open a new second production line. ... It is simply expanding its business operation."

Boeing offered a similar defense, saying the jobs in South Carolina will not come at the expense of jobs in Washington state. The new production line is expected to pump out three planes a month, on top of the seven planes a month coming out of the Puget Sound area. Boeing said since the expansion decision was made, union employment in Puget Sound has increased by about 2,000 workers. Plus Boeing noted that the South Carolina factory is almost done and has involved more than 1,000 workers in the process.
So, the union workforce has increased by 2,000 workers in Puget Sound because of Boeing... and that apparently isn't good enough for the unions.

**** them.
 

i argue that public union membership has been on the rise over the past few years. you reply that no it didn't because it fell in one of the last ten years. i point out that public union membership has indeed been rising, and is now a majority of union membership, and you reply that it can't be because overall union membership has been falling for decades.

isn't it kind of embarrassing for you how obviously wrong you are here? why not just agree that public union membership has been growing even as private unions kill themselves off?
 
why not just agree that public union membership has been growing even as private unions kill themselves off?

Because of the documentation I presented here that show that public unions have most recently been declining, and that was before the war this year waged on unions by the GOP.

We will see in November of next year how the working class responds to this war that has been waged against them by not only attacking their rights to bargain collectively, but in the continued practice of tax cuts for the rich, and a proposal to cut SS and M/MM.
 
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Because of the documentation I presented here that show that public unions have most recently been declining, and that was before the war this year waged on unions by the GOP.

no, you showed that they had a slight decline in 2009 - a year in which unemployment rose and remained high in general. one year is not the same as "several years".

We will see in November of next year how the working class responds to this war that has been waged against them by not only attacking their rights to bargain collectively

well if Wisconsin (which was a light blue state to begin with) is any indication, the main "working class" that is upset is the people "working" for governments. only the public unions were effected by the recent legislation.

why do left-wingers insist on pretending that somehow the working class - which is a huge segment of the American population - can be defined solely within the context of public employee unions? that's like saying that the American economy can be defined by our top 10% of income earners.

but in the continued practice of tax cuts for the rich

(I think I've had to tell you this before) the 2012 House Budget plan is actually tax neutral. Indeed, it keeps top tax rates higher than the President's own Bi-Partisan Debt Reduction Commission suggested - and they estimated that the effect would actually be a tax increase of $100 Bn. So according to one estimate, it's tax neutral and according to another it's a tax increase.

and a proposal to cut SS

the House 2012 Budget asks the President to come together with Congressional leadership to figure out how to fix Social Security. Nowhere does it propose any policy changes whatsoever.

and M/MM.

the House 2012 budget does not cut Medicaid. not a single dollar was spent last year that will not be spent next year, and not a single dollar will be spent next year that does not get spent the following year. Indeed, spending on Medicaid keeps going up under the Republican plan. What happens instead is that Medicaid is transformed into a block grant, which allows state governments flexibility in systematic reform, and removes their incentive to cram as many people as possible into the system to get that "free" federal money. If Medicaid expenditures go down it will be because people are moving up. The mindset of someone who would see that as a negative boggles me.

Both Republicans and the Democrats plan to reduce Medicare expenditures. The Presidents' plan is to have the cuts get made through rationing, which would be planned by a bureacracy known as the IPAB, and would be imposed one-size-fits-all style on America's seniors and current retirees starting in 2014. The 2012 House plan is to allow retirees to allocate their own Medicare dollars so that they decide what is important and what isn't (this is the same plan, btw, that members of Congress are on - I don't see many of them screaming about how what they need is an IPAB to make their decisions for them), but to keep the system currently in place for everyone 55 and older. So whereas the President intends to start cutting Medicare expenditures for our current retirees (who may or may not be able to make needed adjustments), the House plan is to start 10 years from now, so that anyone who will be effected will have plenty of time to plan.

One of these programs screws current seniors, the other doesn't.
 
What is their freedom of association worth if when they choose unions, they are banned from doing so?

Boeing are breaking the law. Suck it up.

It's now against the law to move?

It's now against the law to open new factories in other states?
 
It's now against the law to move?

It's now against the law to open new factories in other states?

evidently - although i think the actual charge is "attempting to grow the economy in ways that don't prop up a failing labor model"
 
the House 2012 Budget asks the President to come together with Congressional leadership to figure out how to fix Social Security. Nowhere does it propose any policy changes whatsoever.

the House 2012 budget does not cut Medicaid. not a single dollar was spent last year that will not be spent next year, and not a single dollar will be spent next year that does not get spent the following year. Indeed, spending on Medicaid keeps going up under the Republican plan. What happens instead is that Medicaid is transformed into a block grant, which allows state governments flexibility in systematic reform, and removes their incentive to cram as many people as possible into the system to get that "free" federal money. If Medicaid expenditures go down it will be because people are moving up. The mindset of someone who would see that as a negative boggles me.

Both Republicans and the Democrats plan to reduce Medicare expenditures. The Presidents' plan is to have the cuts get made through rationing, which would be planned by a bureacracy known as the IPAB, and would be imposed one-size-fits-all style on America's seniors and current retirees starting in 2014. The 2012 House plan is to allow retirees to allocate their own Medicare dollars so that they decide what is important and what isn't (this is the same plan, btw, that members of Congress are on - I don't see many of them screaming about how what they need is an IPAB to make their decisions for them), but to keep the system currently in place for everyone 55 and older. So whereas the President intends to start cutting Medicare expenditures for our current retirees (who may or may not be able to make needed adjustments), the House plan is to start 10 years from now, so that anyone who will be effected will have plenty of time to plan.

One of these programs screws current seniors, the other doesn't.

cpwill predicts that the response from this will be the exact same as the response every time he has brought this up to any other left-leaning member of the board (notable exception: Kandahar).

which is to say that the response will be silence.
 
It's now against the law to move?
it's against the law to engage in union busting
that deprives the employess of the right of association/collective bargaining as provided by law
if boeing's move is tied to a union busting effort - and the insider emails and the public proclaimation indicate that was intended - then the government agency, the one responsible for assuring the unions and employers interact with each other consistent with the federal law, is doing its job to step in and call out boeing for its intentional union busting efforts

It's now against the law to open new factories in other states?
if to do so is found to be an effort to engage in union busting, then yes, that would be unlawful. again, the documents and statements by boeing appear to confirm it was establishing the other facility to undermine the union's ability to engage in 'protected activities' [union actions]
 
Ex-Labor Board Chairman: Union-Backed Case Against Boeing 'Unprecedented' - FoxNews.com

The former chairman of the National Labor Relations Board told FoxNews.com that a board attorney's bid to stop Boeing from opening a production line at a non-union site in South Carolina is "unprecedented" and could have serious implications for companies looking to expand.

The comments Tuesday from Peter Schaumber add to the roiling debate over the complaint filed last week against the aerospace giant. NLRB's acting general counsel, taking up allegations from union workers at a Puget Sound plant in Washington state, had accused Boeing of violating federal labor law by moving to open a second 787 Dreamliner airplane production line in South Carolina.

Schaumber said the complaint is a big stretch and would mark a departure. He said that if the claim is upheld, it could jeopardize any company with unionized workers that wants to expand to a right-to-work state.

"It would be fair to say it's unprecedented," he said.

"The workers don't have any claim to the work," he said. "If the workers don't have any claim to the work, it wasn't retaliatory to open a new second production line. ... It is simply expanding its business operation."

Boeing offered a similar defense, saying the jobs in South Carolina will not come at the expense of jobs in Washington state. The new production line is expected to pump out three planes a month, on top of the seven planes a month coming out of the Puget Sound area. Boeing said since the expansion decision was made, union employment in Puget Sound has increased by about 2,000 workers. Plus Boeing noted that the South Carolina factory is almost done and has involved more than 1,000 workers in the process.

So, the union workforce has increased by 2,000 workers in Puget Sound because of Boeing... and that apparently isn't good enough for the unions.

**** them.

interesting how none of the 'Boeing is an evil union buster' crowd has addressed this.

The former chairman of the National Labor Relations Board thinks this is nonsense. Thanks to Boeing, union employment in Puget Sound has increased by about 2,000 workers since the expansion.

How, exactly, is this union busting? I've asked repeatedly for certain posters to cite the specific law or statute that Boeing broke, making their actions 'union busting'. All I get is 'but...but... they are union busting!'
 
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interesting how none of the 'Boeing is an evil union buster' crowd has addressed this.

The former chairman of the National Labor Relations Board thinks this is nonsense. Thanks to Boeing, union employment in Puget Sound has increased by about 2,000 workers since the expansion.

How, exactly, is this union busting? I've asked repeatedly for certain posters to cite the specific law or statute that Boeing broke, making their actions 'union busting'. All I get is 'but...but... they are union busting!'

Hell, if a company closed a facility specifically because of unionization, I don't believe it should be seen as union busting. Its just a business decision. Also, it maintains a necessary balance between worker concerns and management concerns, both of which are valid.
 
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