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Petition to recall Wisconsin GOP Sen. Sheila Harsdorf to be filed Tuesday

Of course they can be fired. It's just a difficult thing to accomplish. This isn't just teachers either, this is across most public sector jobs. Fact is public sector employees have much higher levels of job security. This even with the current buget battles and potential firing of teachers in some states.

you would like it easier? Just with public jobs or all jobs? No protection for any worker, right?

Look, most places of any size have a process and don't leave these things to personalities or whims. There is nothing wrong with having a process, or seeking protections from being fired unfairly. Job security used to be considered a good thing, something a worker sought. Why do you see it as bad?
 
In New York City, the cost to fire one incompetent tenured teacher is about $250,000, said Education Department spokeswoman Melody Meyer. She said that of 55,000 teachers on staff, 10 were fired last year.

here, in the california east bay, union types have always thrown around the figure, million

as in, it costs the district about a million dollars to get rid of one of us

yup, it's all in those procedurals

LOL!
 
About half? Not so good at math are you?

3 dems and 6 reps is exactly half.

Yes, I think it's been very well known since the process started that Democrats were much more organized, even getting help from the dem party. Republican efforts were not nearly as organized and did not recieve much, if any, help from the republican party. Many in WI were lamenting this fact, as they felt the republican party was not taking the threat nearly as seriously as they should have.

Addtionally, out of the 6 petitions submitted against republucans, no one seriously thinks many will actually lose the recall election.

On the other hand, out of the 3 submitted against Democrats, all 3 have a serious chance of losing.

So you see the fact that Republicans only got hundreds of signatures when they needed thousands as a good thing? If that makes you feel better about how the class war in Wisconsin and nationwide will play out, more power to you! :sun
 
So you see the fact that Republicans only got hundreds of signatures when they needed thousands as a good thing? If that makes you feel better about how the class war in Wisconsin and nationwide will play out, more power to you! :sun

I am simply stating, the number of signatures gathered means nearly jack squat. Signature gathering is about organization - which democrats have.

The dems gathered enough sigatures to force recall elections on 6 republicans. How many do you think will actually be recalled? if you are a very optimistic democrat, maybe 3. If you are a realist you would look at 1 possibly 2 at the most.

Out of the 3 democrat senators that will face recall, how many will actually be recalled? An optimistic republican would say 3. A realist would say 1 possibly 2 at the most.

The recall elections are going to be pretty much a wash. There is a very real possiblity that republicans may actually net a gain of one seat.

If this is a huge uprising to you, more power to you. I just don't think many would agree.
 
you would like it easier? Just with public jobs or all jobs? No protection for any worker, right?

Look, most places of any size have a process and don't leave these things to personalities or whims. There is nothing wrong with having a process, or seeking protections from being fired unfairly. Job security used to be considered a good thing, something a worker sought. Why do you see it as bad?

Yes, I would like it to be much easier and less costly to fire tenured teachers with cause.

And, I never said it was bad. I simply stated that I would trade the alledged 4% salary hit (when compared to the private sector) for the job security and pension offered in the public sector (and time off for teachers). In other words, they aren't nearly as underpaid as you allege and I think the trade off benefits teachers by a large portion.
 
Yes, I would like it to be much easier and less costly to fire tenured teachers with cause.

And, I never said it was bad. I simply stated that I would trade the alledged 4% salary hit (when compared to the private sector) for the job security and pension offered in the public sector (and time off for teachers). In other words, they aren't nearly as underpaid as you allege and I think the trade off benefits teachers by a large portion.

Private secotr has many of the same type of procedures. It is not unusal. And yes, they are relatively underpaid. They are not hourly employees. They are professionals on salary. And as I noted, they often work in many different ways during the summer. Add to it the crap they take, the disrespect, and you might see why so many don't stay in the profession.

In general, the turnover rate among teachers is significantly higher than for other occupations.1 The fact is, an alarming and unsustainable number of teachers are leaving teaching during their first few years of teaching.

(snip)
For example, a California survey found that teachers in high-minority, low-income schools report significantly worse working conditions – including poorer facilities, less availability of textbooks and supplies, fewer administrative supports, and larger class sizes, and that teachers are significantly more likely to say they plan to leave a school soon because of these poor working conditions.31 A subsequent analysis of these data confirmed that turnover problems are more strongly influenced by school working conditions and salary levels than by student characteristics in these schools.32

http://www.ncsu.edu/mentorjunction/text_files/teacher_retentionsymposium.pdf


YOUNG teachers are leaving the profession at an "alarming" rate, new figures reveal, threatening a staffing crisis in NSW public schools, with half of the teaching workforce approaching retirement.



Read more: Rookie teachers quitting

Many analysts argue that current school staffing problems are caused as much by teacher attrition as by the failure to attract new teachers. Indeed, research has shown that approximately one-quarter of all beginning teachers leave teaching within four years (Benner 2000; Rowan et al. 2002). In general, teachers list family or personal reasons, such as pregnancy, the demands of child rearing, and health problems as reasons for leaving the profession. Job dissatisfaction, primarily due to poor salary, poor administrative support, and student discipline problems, is also among the most frequent reasons teachers give for leaving the profession (Tye and O'Brien 2002; Ingersoll 2001; MacDonald 1999). In addition, some qualitative research indicates that more general factors, including government policies, portrayal of teachers in the mass media, and community attitudes, also influence teachers' general esteem and status in society, which features largely in their professional commitment and morale.

http://www.ncef.org/pubs/teacherretention.cfm
 
I am simply stating, the number of signatures gathered means nearly jack squat. Signature gathering is about organization - which democrats have.

The dems gathered enough sigatures to force recall elections on 6 republicans. How many do you think will actually be recalled? if you are a very optimistic democrat, maybe 3. If you are a realist you would look at 1 possibly 2 at the most.

Out of the 3 democrat senators that will face recall, how many will actually be recalled? An optimistic republican would say 3. A realist would say 1 possibly 2 at the most.

The recall elections are going to be pretty much a wash. There is a very real possiblity that republicans may actually net a gain of one seat.

If this is a huge uprising to you, more power to you. I just don't think many would agree.

My opinion is that better organization is fueled by volunteers who care about their cause and have a receptive citizenry to their concerns.

My guess is, since you asked, due to the class war being waged on the working class in this country, that twice as many Democrats will win in the recall elections, that Scott Walker will be a one-term Governor, and that Obama will be handily reelected.
 
Private secotr has many of the same type of procedures. It is not unusal. And yes, they are relatively underpaid. They are not hourly employees. They are professionals on salary. And as I noted, they often work in many different ways during the summer. Add to it the crap they take, the disrespect, and you might see why so many don't stay in the profession.

They're salaried professionals working 9 months. To take a private sector employee that works 12 months and compare the salary to a teacher that works 9 months is not a fair comparison. It's easiest to break them both down to an hourly rate, which I assume is where they come up with the 4% difference. I do not know if they are including pensions in the difference or not, but regardless. To have only a 4% difference in salary and get 3 months off and a nice pension and other benefits, is a more then fair trade off. Teachers that work during the summer (isn't that just 1 extra month in the summer - I could be wrong on that) are paid additional salary.

I wouldn't make a good teacher, but if I thought I had the skill set I would be all over it. The 4% hit is greatly overwhelmed by the benefits associated.

And no. While there are also obstacles to firing a private sector employee, the obstacles are not nearly as difficult to climb over and the cost is not even in the ballpark of the cost assocaited with firing a tenured teacher.
 
My opinion is that better organization is fueled by volunteers who care about their cause and have a receptive citizenry to their concerns.

My guess is, since you asked, due to the class war being waged on the working class in this country, that twice as many Democrats will win in the recall elections, that Scott Walker will be a one-term Governor, and that Obama will be handily reelected.

We're all entitled to our opinion. But some opinions are just silly. You should take Danarhea up on his bet (see link).

Walker has a decent chance of being recalled, due to Madison and Milwaukee. But, i'm not even sure on that. Polls show only 44% vs 51 percent think he should be recalled. But he senators, not so much.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...es-recall-wisconsin-state-sen-rob-cowles.html
 
Private secotr has many of the same type of procedures.

a quarter million to FIRE someone?

LOL!

you better hope not

And as I noted, they often work in many different ways during the summer.

we are contracted, i work 181 days a year

not 182

Add to it the crap they take

LOL!

a hyphy hi schooler with an attitude?

save me

in other words, GET A JOB

the disrespect

in my profession, you get what you make

good teachers are respected


a teacher retention symposium at ncsu?

LOL!

YOUNG teachers are leaving the profession at an "alarming" rate

yup, they're getting LAID OFF

they don't have tenure, y'see

not until the ides of march of your second year

us oldsters are gettin all the protection (and you should see our pensions)


a 2009 link...

from NEW SOUTH WALES!

LOL!

AUSTRALIA!
 
They're salaried professionals working 9 months. To take a private sector employee that works 12 months and compare the salary to a teacher that works 9 months is not a fair comparison. It's easiest to break them both down to an hourly rate, which I assume is where they come up with the 4% difference. I do not know if they are including pensions in the difference or not, but regardless. To have only a 4% difference in salary and get 3 months off and a nice pension and other benefits, is a more then fair trade off. Teachers that work during the summer (isn't that just 1 extra month in the summer - I could be wrong on that) are paid additional salary.

I wouldn't make a good teacher, but if I thought I had the skill set I would be all over it. The 4% hit is greatly overwhelmed by the benefits associated.

And no. While there are also obstacles to firing a private sector employee, the obstacles are not nearly as difficult to climb over and the cost is not even in the ballpark of the cost assocaited with firing a tenured teacher.

Many other professionals get extended times off, but as I have said, teacher do work during the summer. I don't mean extra classes, or things they get paid for. There are a lot of continuing ed they need, changes to laws they have to update on, and so on. Sometimes on top of this, they accept an extra class, for which they are paid, much like overtime for others, but summers are often full with things they have to do and pay for.

I've worked a lot in the private sector, at hospitals for example, and I there were very specific standards. They could not just fire me. They had to work through the procedures. Even at nursing homes, where aids were often considered a dime a dozen, there were procedures.

As to why it cost so much to fire a teacher, I can see where they're getting their costs from. I would love to see a break down. But I also would blame those who negotiated with them. No law made anyone signing anything that would be that expensive.
 
Many other professionals get extended times off

3 months?

on the taxpayers' time?

MILLIONS of em?

everywhere there're 30 kids there's a school teacher

There are a lot of continuing ed they need, changes to laws they have to update on, and so on.

for every 15 units completed, teachers move over a column on the pay scale

in my district it comes to a raise of 1800 dollars per year---every year for the rest of our careers

and it also greatly increases our pensions, which are already 400% of social security

but summers are often full with things they have to do and pay for.

you don't know what you're talking about

Even at nursing homes, where aids were often considered a dime a dozen, there were procedures.

i know

a quarter million dollars worth

LOL!

No law made anyone signing anything that would be that expensive.

there's no real need to make excuses

no one's blaming

it's just a big problem which needs fixing

grow up
 
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To fix a problem you have to understand it. Demonizing teachers is the wrong track to take. Try negotiating better.
 
gotta reform that teacher tenure

f-i-x

grow up
 
Again, to fix, you have to understand the problem. Either address that, or move on.
 
LOL!

the problem is it takes a quarter million to eliminate a bad teacher

grow up
 
Battle line Drawn in Wisconsin

Austerity Attacks and Union-Busting

"Across the country, Democratic politicians as well as Republicans are demanding major wage and benefit concessions from public-sector workers, along with horrific cutbacks in social services that will hit all working and poor people. The politicians justify their attacks on the grounds that state budgets have been crimped by the unfolding of the world economic crisis. Indeed, the Great Recession and the threat of an all-out Depression is real, even though Republican and Democratic politicians have worsened the budget deficits by granting tax breaks to the rich and corporations, on top of the huge bailouts to Wall Street. World capitalism has been stagnating for four decades; gains in profit rates have been achieved only by deepening the exploitation of workers in the economically advanced countries like the U.S. as well as expanding the imperialist super-exploitation of workers and peasants in the poor countries.

In Wisconsin, Governor Walker has taken the attack to a new level: he insists on the abrogation of public-sector union rights to negotiate over anything but small variations in wages. In effect, he wants government bosses to be able to dictate job conditions to destroy pensions and benefit packages without even consultation. This is out-and-out union-busting.

The nationwide public-sector austerity attack is a classical divide-and-conquer technique. It aims to convince workers in the private sector, as well as other beleaguered sectors of the population, that public workers, not the capitalist system, are the root of the problems with state and municipal budgets, the quality of education, etc. The capitalist class and its politicians hope to set back public-worker unions and use that precedent to take back more from private-sector workers and other already suffering sectors of the population. Walker & Co. go further: they want to crush unions as defensive organizations of the working class as a step in a longer term effort to further slash the wages and conditions of all workers, union and non-union.

The Democratic (and some Republican) politicians who do not favor all-out union busting at this time are not heroes – they simply understand that the current union labor leadership is totally loyal to the capitalist system and can be depended upon to keep the rank and file upsurge within limits that don’t rock the boat. They want to keep the union leaders in their “seat at the table” in order to protect the image of fairness. They fear the class explosions that could occur and spread under the impact of union-busting. "
Battle Line Drawn in Wisconsin
 
no stopping it, friends

No doubt the class war is on. The only question is if the working class and the elderly in this country will fight back come election time. There is every indication they will.
 
tell it to cuomo, patrick, brown...

tell it to rahm the ram, cuz chicago's next

the gop just stole the most house seats since 1938, most state reps and assemblies in history, 10 gubs, 6 senators...

what's changed since then?

why, the CLASS WAR, of course

class warfare is NEW!

LOL!
 
tell it to cuomo, patrick, brown...

tell it to rahm the ram, cuz chicago's next

the gop just stole the most house seats since 1938, most state reps and assemblies in history, 10 gubs, 6 senators...

what's changed since then?

The open war against the working class and the elderly, the proposed GOP budget that continues tax cuts for the rich while cutting Medicare and SS and health care reform.
 
To fix a problem you have to understand it. Demonizing teachers is the wrong track to take. Try negotiating better.

From what I understand, he is a teacher. One apparently brave enough to realize the truth.

As for negotiating better, that's part of the problem. The negotiators were often ex-teachers and very sympathetic to the current teachers. This led, IMO, to many abuses. As confirmation of this, you can see in WI that many communities rushed through teacher contracts just prior to Walker's bill coming into affect (prior to the realization that it would be tied up in court).
 
The open war against the working class and the elderly

you really shouldn't talk about cuomo and moonbeam that way

they're really the best the class war crowd has to offer

aside from the slasher hussein, that is
 
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