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Thread: Petition to recall Wisconsin GOP Sen. Sheila Harsdorf to be filed Tuesday

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    Re: Petition to recall Wisconsin GOP Sen. Sheila Harsdorf to be filed Tuesday

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Of course they can be fired. It's just a difficult thing to accomplish. This isn't just teachers either, this is across most public sector jobs. Fact is public sector employees have much higher levels of job security. This even with the current buget battles and potential firing of teachers in some states.
    you would like it easier? Just with public jobs or all jobs? No protection for any worker, right?

    Look, most places of any size have a process and don't leave these things to personalities or whims. There is nothing wrong with having a process, or seeking protections from being fired unfairly. Job security used to be considered a good thing, something a worker sought. Why do you see it as bad?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Petition to recall Wisconsin GOP Sen. Sheila Harsdorf to be filed Tuesday

    In New York City, the cost to fire one incompetent tenured teacher is about $250,000, said Education Department spokeswoman Melody Meyer. She said that of 55,000 teachers on staff, 10 were fired last year.
    here, in the california east bay, union types have always thrown around the figure, million

    as in, it costs the district about a million dollars to get rid of one of us

    yup, it's all in those procedurals

    LOL!

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    Re: Petition to recall Wisconsin GOP Sen. Sheila Harsdorf to be filed Tuesday

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    About half? Not so good at math are you?

    3 dems and 6 reps is exactly half.

    Yes, I think it's been very well known since the process started that Democrats were much more organized, even getting help from the dem party. Republican efforts were not nearly as organized and did not recieve much, if any, help from the republican party. Many in WI were lamenting this fact, as they felt the republican party was not taking the threat nearly as seriously as they should have.

    Addtionally, out of the 6 petitions submitted against republucans, no one seriously thinks many will actually lose the recall election.

    On the other hand, out of the 3 submitted against Democrats, all 3 have a serious chance of losing.
    So you see the fact that Republicans only got hundreds of signatures when they needed thousands as a good thing? If that makes you feel better about how the class war in Wisconsin and nationwide will play out, more power to you!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Petition to recall Wisconsin GOP Sen. Sheila Harsdorf to be filed Tuesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    So you see the fact that Republicans only got hundreds of signatures when they needed thousands as a good thing? If that makes you feel better about how the class war in Wisconsin and nationwide will play out, more power to you!
    I am simply stating, the number of signatures gathered means nearly jack squat. Signature gathering is about organization - which democrats have.

    The dems gathered enough sigatures to force recall elections on 6 republicans. How many do you think will actually be recalled? if you are a very optimistic democrat, maybe 3. If you are a realist you would look at 1 possibly 2 at the most.

    Out of the 3 democrat senators that will face recall, how many will actually be recalled? An optimistic republican would say 3. A realist would say 1 possibly 2 at the most.

    The recall elections are going to be pretty much a wash. There is a very real possiblity that republicans may actually net a gain of one seat.

    If this is a huge uprising to you, more power to you. I just don't think many would agree.

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    Re: Petition to recall Wisconsin GOP Sen. Sheila Harsdorf to be filed Tuesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    you would like it easier? Just with public jobs or all jobs? No protection for any worker, right?

    Look, most places of any size have a process and don't leave these things to personalities or whims. There is nothing wrong with having a process, or seeking protections from being fired unfairly. Job security used to be considered a good thing, something a worker sought. Why do you see it as bad?
    Yes, I would like it to be much easier and less costly to fire tenured teachers with cause.

    And, I never said it was bad. I simply stated that I would trade the alledged 4% salary hit (when compared to the private sector) for the job security and pension offered in the public sector (and time off for teachers). In other words, they aren't nearly as underpaid as you allege and I think the trade off benefits teachers by a large portion.

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    Re: Petition to recall Wisconsin GOP Sen. Sheila Harsdorf to be filed Tuesday

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Yes, I would like it to be much easier and less costly to fire tenured teachers with cause.

    And, I never said it was bad. I simply stated that I would trade the alledged 4% salary hit (when compared to the private sector) for the job security and pension offered in the public sector (and time off for teachers). In other words, they aren't nearly as underpaid as you allege and I think the trade off benefits teachers by a large portion.
    Private secotr has many of the same type of procedures. It is not unusal. And yes, they are relatively underpaid. They are not hourly employees. They are professionals on salary. And as I noted, they often work in many different ways during the summer. Add to it the crap they take, the disrespect, and you might see why so many don't stay in the profession.

    In general, the turnover rate among teachers is significantly higher than for other occupations.1 The fact is, an alarming and unsustainable number of teachers are leaving teaching during their first few years of teaching.

    (snip)
    For example, a California survey found that teachers in high-minority, low-income schools report significantly worse working conditions – including poorer facilities, less availability of textbooks and supplies, fewer administrative supports, and larger class sizes, and that teachers are significantly more likely to say they plan to leave a school soon because of these poor working conditions.31 A subsequent analysis of these data confirmed that turnover problems are more strongly influenced by school working conditions and salary levels than by student characteristics in these schools.32

    http://www.ncsu.edu/mentorjunction/t...nsymposium.pdf


    YOUNG teachers are leaving the profession at an "alarming" rate, new figures reveal, threatening a staffing crisis in NSW public schools, with half of the teaching workforce approaching retirement.



    Read more: Rookie teachers quitting

    Many analysts argue that current school staffing problems are caused as much by teacher attrition as by the failure to attract new teachers. Indeed, research has shown that approximately one-quarter of all beginning teachers leave teaching within four years (Benner 2000; Rowan et al. 2002). In general, teachers list family or personal reasons, such as pregnancy, the demands of child rearing, and health problems as reasons for leaving the profession. Job dissatisfaction, primarily due to poor salary, poor administrative support, and student discipline problems, is also among the most frequent reasons teachers give for leaving the profession (Tye and O'Brien 2002; Ingersoll 2001; MacDonald 1999). In addition, some qualitative research indicates that more general factors, including government policies, portrayal of teachers in the mass media, and community attitudes, also influence teachers' general esteem and status in society, which features largely in their professional commitment and morale.

    http://www.ncef.org/pubs/teacherretention.cfm

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Petition to recall Wisconsin GOP Sen. Sheila Harsdorf to be filed Tuesday

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I am simply stating, the number of signatures gathered means nearly jack squat. Signature gathering is about organization - which democrats have.

    The dems gathered enough sigatures to force recall elections on 6 republicans. How many do you think will actually be recalled? if you are a very optimistic democrat, maybe 3. If you are a realist you would look at 1 possibly 2 at the most.

    Out of the 3 democrat senators that will face recall, how many will actually be recalled? An optimistic republican would say 3. A realist would say 1 possibly 2 at the most.

    The recall elections are going to be pretty much a wash. There is a very real possiblity that republicans may actually net a gain of one seat.

    If this is a huge uprising to you, more power to you. I just don't think many would agree.
    My opinion is that better organization is fueled by volunteers who care about their cause and have a receptive citizenry to their concerns.

    My guess is, since you asked, due to the class war being waged on the working class in this country, that twice as many Democrats will win in the recall elections, that Scott Walker will be a one-term Governor, and that Obama will be handily reelected.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Petition to recall Wisconsin GOP Sen. Sheila Harsdorf to be filed Tuesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Private secotr has many of the same type of procedures. It is not unusal. And yes, they are relatively underpaid. They are not hourly employees. They are professionals on salary. And as I noted, they often work in many different ways during the summer. Add to it the crap they take, the disrespect, and you might see why so many don't stay in the profession.
    They're salaried professionals working 9 months. To take a private sector employee that works 12 months and compare the salary to a teacher that works 9 months is not a fair comparison. It's easiest to break them both down to an hourly rate, which I assume is where they come up with the 4% difference. I do not know if they are including pensions in the difference or not, but regardless. To have only a 4% difference in salary and get 3 months off and a nice pension and other benefits, is a more then fair trade off. Teachers that work during the summer (isn't that just 1 extra month in the summer - I could be wrong on that) are paid additional salary.

    I wouldn't make a good teacher, but if I thought I had the skill set I would be all over it. The 4% hit is greatly overwhelmed by the benefits associated.

    And no. While there are also obstacles to firing a private sector employee, the obstacles are not nearly as difficult to climb over and the cost is not even in the ballpark of the cost assocaited with firing a tenured teacher.

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    Re: Petition to recall Wisconsin GOP Sen. Sheila Harsdorf to be filed Tuesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    My opinion is that better organization is fueled by volunteers who care about their cause and have a receptive citizenry to their concerns.

    My guess is, since you asked, due to the class war being waged on the working class in this country, that twice as many Democrats will win in the recall elections, that Scott Walker will be a one-term Governor, and that Obama will be handily reelected.
    We're all entitled to our opinion. But some opinions are just silly. You should take Danarhea up on his bet (see link).

    Walker has a decent chance of being recalled, due to Madison and Milwaukee. But, i'm not even sure on that. Polls show only 44% vs 51 percent think he should be recalled. But he senators, not so much.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...ob-cowles.html

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    Re: Petition to recall Wisconsin GOP Sen. Sheila Harsdorf to be filed Tuesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Private secotr has many of the same type of procedures.
    a quarter million to FIRE someone?

    LOL!

    you better hope not

    And as I noted, they often work in many different ways during the summer.
    we are contracted, i work 181 days a year

    not 182

    Add to it the crap they take
    LOL!

    a hyphy hi schooler with an attitude?

    save me

    in other words, GET A JOB

    the disrespect
    in my profession, you get what you make

    good teachers are respected

    a teacher retention symposium at ncsu?

    LOL!

    YOUNG teachers are leaving the profession at an "alarming" rate
    yup, they're getting LAID OFF

    they don't have tenure, y'see

    not until the ides of march of your second year

    us oldsters are gettin all the protection (and you should see our pensions)

    a 2009 link...

    from NEW SOUTH WALES!

    LOL!

    AUSTRALIA!

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