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Thread: U.N. Prepares to Debate Whether 'Mother Earth' Deserves Human Rights Status

  1. #21
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    Re: U.N. Prepares to Debate Whether 'Mother Earth' Deserves Human Rights Status

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    Well seriously, some of you talk about the planet like goofballs who think she loves and nurtures us. Even if we set off every nuke in the world all at the same time, the planet would survive, life on this planet would survive and eventually it would evolve into a whole new set of creatures etc.

    The argument really isn’t about life on earth long term, it is about money for most (socialists) and the preservation of all life forms as they are now for others (enviro-nuts). Neither one is logical.
    if you really want to get serious, its about money for most (capitalist). and considering companies trade and sell thier carbon footprints, its ALLL about corporate greed
    get real brah, cause im not even gonna delve into the scientific inaccuracies of your world wide nuclear launch theory
    _americanDROOG_

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    Re: U.N. Prepares to Debate Whether 'Mother Earth' Deserves Human Rights Status

    Quote Originally Posted by lovelyLUDWIG View Post
    if you really want to get serious, its about money for most (capitalist). and considering companies trade and sell thier carbon footprints, its ALLL about corporate greed
    get real brah, cause im not even gonna delve into the scientific inaccuracies of your world wide nuclear launch theory
    Well “brah”, I have news for you, your life would suck compared to what it is if it weren’t for capitalism and greedy corporations. If you are going to pretend to be a true environmentalist then that guitar there in your avatar, you need to kiss it goodbye because it is made of plastics, steel, wood, polymers and other environmentally unfriendly components as is the shirt you wear, the toothbrush you hopefully use, the soap you hopefully use, the house you live in, the car or bicycle you ride/drive, the salad you eat, the water you drink, the toilet you crap in and the paper you wipe your butt with etc.

    You see, nearly everything in your life involves some “environmentally unfriendly” component to it if you buy into the BS so you need to start sending me a check for $100 every day you wake up and live your life because you are destroying the planet by consuming and producing goods that hurt the planet. If you send me the money, I will ask Mother Earth to forgive you for your sins, and she will because she is my hoe and I am her pimp, and you can go on about your life feeling like the burden of guilt has been lifted because you are doing your part and you are saving the planet.

    Sound like a deal brah?
    Last edited by GPS_Flex; 04-19-11 at 03:32 AM.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  3. #23
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    Re: U.N. Prepares to Debate Whether 'Mother Earth' Deserves Human Rights Status

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    And the US doesn't try to control the world... Come on now....
    I love your sig, you say governments should fear the people yet you are a proud socialist. The irony.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: U.N. Prepares to Debate Whether 'Mother Earth' Deserves Human Rights Status

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    The Earth does not give us life, God created all things for us to use and they react to a set of rules based on biology, physics, and what we do is controlled by our free will. Animals react based on nature within the rules the Lord set up.

    The earth is not a sentient entity.

    If it were the whack jobs that claim the Earth gets even for transgressions like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell might have a point to make.

    Are there things we can do better? Damn right and miracles can come with the power of prayer. The Lord answers all prayers but sometime that answer is no.

    The US does pay the most for the Socialist UN but what we try to do is influence not control or Germany and Japan would not be Sovereign Nations as well as some others.

    You can be green without being a weenie or radical about it. It seems logic goes out the window when ever this stuff come up.
    As I have said elsewhere I believe the universe is a made thing, an artefact.

    I don't know for sure that there is a "Made by Yahweh" sticker somewhere, but I came up with intelligent design on my own at about 9 years old when I first encountered the fossil record/6000 year old earth paradox.

    I also got the impression from Genesis that Adam was the caretaker of the Garden. Created to take care of God's creation.

    I never could resolve the "God made it for us to wreck as we see fit" concept with my understanding of the Bible.

    And I agree that its possible to be environmentally conscious without being ridiculous.

    I feel it is the nature of our two party system that requires one to take the most extreme position as a starting point to reaching every compromise. It makes both sides look ridiculous, and is a lot of the reason we can't seem to reach reasonable compromises.

    So I'm not challenging your post, just qualifying my take on the OP, which simply attempted to go with what we can see with our own eyes.

    And I never considered the biosphere "sentient", but computer science and the science of mind does point to the number of connections in any complex system as being relevant to consciousness. And the biosphere is complexly interconnected, so some kind of simple "hive mind" or something could exist. (Just an entertaining thought game, not any kind of cosmology).
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: U.N. Prepares to Debate Whether 'Mother Earth' Deserves Human Rights Status

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    Well “brah”, I have news for you, your life would suck compared to what it is if it weren’t for capitalism and greedy corporations. If you are going to pretend to be a true environmentalist then that guitar there in your avatar, you need to kiss it goodbye because it is made of plastics, steel, wood, polymers and other environmentally unfriendly components as is the shirt you wear, the toothbrush you hopefully use, the soap you hopefully use, the house you live in, the car or bicycle you ride/drive, the salad you eat, the water you drink, the toilet you crap in and the paper you wipe your butt with etc.

    You see, nearly everything in your life involves some “environmentally unfriendly” component to it if you buy into the BS so you need to start sending me a check for $100 every day you wake up and live your life because you are destroying the planet by consuming and producing goods that hurt the planet. If you send me the money, I will ask Mother Earth to forgive you for your sins, and she will because she is my hoe and I am her pimp, and you can go on about your life feeling like the burden of guilt has been lifted because you are doing your part and you are saving the planet.

    Sound like a deal brah?
    I never have understood why so many insist on reducing everything to the point of absurdity. Aside from the fact it is a common persuasion tactic.

    A long time ago I became concerned about the course of the world.

    I have always been contemptuous of the throwaway world we live in.

    To be honest I decided that I didn't want to work my life away playing a game someone else made up that I am required to play.

    "Get with the program" always raised questions like "What program?", "Who made up this program?, and "Why does this program look like BS like all the other programs devised exclusively by kings and tycoons?"

    Long story short, I don't have lots of disposable things, I have fewer very well made, durable things.

    Following this model would allow us to have the things we have grown accustomed to while ameliorating the toxicity of their production.

    Alternative energy technology should have saved us from the current changes occuring worldwide. But we decided to defend the fossil fuel industries instead, harping on whether global warming is real or not.

    The rest of the world believes it is, and is eager to purchase these technologies. That alone should have convinced us to do what we always have before, which is provide the world with the tech we so easily devise.

    But no, China is kicking our asses in this area as well, and I doubt we could catch up now if we decided to try.

    And the right talks to the left like they're daft children if any responsibility in regards to our fragile biosphere is even mentioned.

    And there ARE demonstrable problems manifesting worldwide in the health of the planet we depend on for our survival. Reef die offs, a huge trash whirlpool in the middle of the Pacific, extinctions everywhere. There were "environmental cascades" being studied when I was a kid, where one of those worms or whatever that are constantly being dismissed as irrelevant became extinct and turned out to be key to the survival of its local biology dragging the rest of the local ecology down with it.

    And I'm not sure that mercantilism and non-corporate businesses couldn't have provided the world we live in as well as capitalism and corporate business has.
    .
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: U.N. Prepares to Debate Whether 'Mother Earth' Deserves Human Rights Status

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Alternative energy technology should have saved us from the current changes occuring worldwide. But we decided to defend the fossil fuel industries instead, harping on whether global warming is real or not.
    No, global warming alarmists decided to attack the fossil fuel industry, attack capitalism and promote socialism as the solution. I’m not sure where you get the idea that we would have been “saved” by alternative energy already. Care to explain how this could have happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    And the right talks to the left like they're daft children if any responsibility in regards to our fragile biosphere is even mentioned.
    Maybe that’s because the left never frames the issue in reasonable terms and always has to make it into an attack on existing and proven energy sources, attacks on capitalism and the promotion of socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    And I'm not sure that mercantilism and non-corporate businesses couldn't have provided the world we live in as well as capitalism and corporate business has.
    You, and the United Nations, make my point for me once again. If enviro-nuts were simply seeking solutions rather than pushing their socialist demands, those on the right might be more willing to work with them.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  7. #27
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    Re: U.N. Prepares to Debate Whether 'Mother Earth' Deserves Human Rights Status

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    No, global warming alarmists decided to attack the fossil fuel industry, attack capitalism and promote socialism as the solution. I’m not sure where you get the idea that we would have been “saved” by alternative energy already. Care to explain how this could have happened?



    Maybe that’s because the left never frames the issue in reasonable terms and always has to make it into an attack on existing and proven energy sources, attacks on capitalism and the promotion of socialism?



    You, and the United Nations, make my point for me once again. If enviro-nuts were simply seeking solutions rather than pushing their socialist demands, those on the right might be more willing to work with them.
    Ah, one of my favorites.

    I actually did this math awhile ago in response to a conversational statement similar to yours.

    So here goes.

    Its all about priorities.

    A grid based solar system for an average home at the time I did the orignal numbers was about $25,000. This would provide, for So Cal, enough solar power to zero an average families electricity. bill. Normal, "Dad" level conservation.

    Solar panel costs have gone up due to high demand outstripping supplies. But recent tech. advances may change things a little, and China is tooling up to meet demand.

    But I can't remember exactly what point in the Iraq conflict I took the next number in the formula from so lets do this:

    Solar system for average home, average real world family of four, zero net electric bill:

    $50,000

    War in Iraq:

    $1,000,000,000,000

    Households that could have been permanently freed from fossil/imported energy had we spent that money solarizing:

    20,000,000

    Americans permanently free from foreign/diminishing/polluting fossil fuels for their electricity:

    80,000,000, or somewhere around 25% of the country.

    Now, before you get anything in a bunch, its just math illustrating what could have been done with that money, that we spent. And of course those aren't exact correct numbers.

    But its still a LOT of people, ENERGY NEEDS MET, NO FURTHER COST ABOVE MAINTENANCE.

    Not still paying more with no end in sight to higher bills.

    I'm not sure how long it takes for all that electricity to total a trillion, but that's money we could certainly use here. And how many times would we have to divert capital to similar projects, before we never had to entangle ourselves in foreign conflicts over access to oil?

    And we would have had to build solar panel factories to do it, because there's nowhere near enough manufacturing capacity to meet that demand!

    Its not a matter of alternative energy being unrealistic or that the technologies are all immature.

    Its a matter of us deciding to sell the world what it wants to buy.

    Instead of letting vested interests sell us what they want us to buy.
    Last edited by What if...?; 04-20-11 at 12:57 AM.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: U.N. Prepares to Debate Whether 'Mother Earth' Deserves Human Rights Status

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Ah, one of my favorites.

    I actually did this math awhile ago in response to a conversational statement similar to yours.

    So here goes.

    Its all about priorities.

    A grid based solar system for an average home at the time I did the orignal numbers was about $25,000. This would provide, for So Cal, enough solar power to zero an average families electricity. bill. Normal, "Dad" level conservation.

    Solar panel costs have gone up due to high demand outstripping supplies. But recent tech. advances may change things a little, and China is tooling up to meet demand.

    But I can't remember exactly what point in the Iraq conflict I took the next number in the formula from so lets do this:

    Solar system for average home, average real world family of four, zero net electric bill:

    $50,000

    War in Iraq:

    $1,000,000,000,000

    Households that could have been permanently freed from fossil/imported energy had we spent that money solarizing:

    20,000,000

    Americans permanently free from foreign/diminishing/polluting fossil fuels for their electricity:

    80,000,000, or somewhere around 25% of the country.

    Now, before you get anything in a bunch, its just math illustrating what could have been done with that money, that we spent. And of course those aren't exact correct numbers.

    But its still a LOT of people, ENERGY NEEDS MET, NO FURTHER COST ABOVE MAINTENANCE.

    Not still paying more with no end in sight to higher bills.

    I'm not sure how long it takes for all that electricity to total a trillion, but that's money we could certainly use here. And how many times would we have to divert capital to similar projects, before we never had to entangle ourselves in foreign conflicts over access to oil?

    And we would have had to build solar panel factories to do it, because there's nowhere near enough manufacturing capacity to meet that demand!

    Its not a matter of alternative energy being unrealistic or that the technologies are all immature.

    Its a matter of us deciding to sell the world what it wants to buy.

    Instead of letting vested interests sell us what they want us to buy.
    So how does your study account for the huge influx of nitrogen triflouride (NF3) during production of this many solar panels and how does it account for the increase in global warming caused by their absorption of electromagnetic energy where only 15%-30% of the absorbed energy is actually converted into electricity?

    You do realize that reason inner cities are so much hotter than the suburbs on a hot day is because they act like solar panels due to the difference between the materials and colors they are comprised of right?

    I can help you with one of these questions. What we need to do is make sure every roof top and every street is painted bright white.

    At least you spared me the pinko commie lecture this time around

    BTW, that was a great post. Thanks.
    Last edited by GPS_Flex; 04-20-11 at 02:36 AM.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  9. #29
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    Re: U.N. Prepares to Debate Whether 'Mother Earth' Deserves Human Rights Status

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    So how does your study account for the huge influx of nitrogen triflouride (NF3) during production of this many solar panels and how does it account for the increase in global warming caused by their absorption of electromagnetic energy where only 15%-30% of the absorbed energy is actually converted into electricity?

    You do realize that reason inner cities are so much hotter than the suburbs on a hot day is because they act like solar panels due to the difference between the materials and colors they are comprised of right?

    I can help you with one of these questions. What we need to do is make sure every roof top and every street is painted bright white.

    At least you spared me the pinko commie lecture this time around

    BTW, that was a great post. Thanks.
    I am aware of the toxicity involved in photovoltaic solar panels, as well as the limited amounts of I think its gallium arsenate(sic) available globally.

    There's a new PV chemistry that just came on the scene, I know little about it yet though.

    I'm a real fan of concentrating solar. The Sunflower system, which incorporates a Stirling engine at the focal point of a parabolic array is way cool, as well as some of the "farms" here in So Cal.

    But those systems are geographically constrained. They only work well in areas with very high full sun days. Deserts basically.

    I would like to know more about your global warming statement though, as I don't understand your reasoning. Not picking a fight.

    I have a friend who sprays on that white foam roofing, so I get that part.

    But I have always understood that A) PV panels shade roofs from direct sunlight, lowering net heat hitting the roof underneath and B) That the 15-30% you mentioned is converted to electricity and taken away, resulting in a net decrease in local heat.

    I am interested in your claim though and would like to hear more.

    I do like to know what I'm talking about.

    And I still think we should be leading the way in the arena of alt energy instead of fighting it every step of the way.

    I have friends who live downwind of the big windfarms near Palm Springs. They are convinced that weather patterns where they grew up have changed due to the drag the windmills put on the prevailing winds "stalling" weather systems that previously brought a lot more rain. No evidence just experiential data.

    And they live in a a sustainable, off-grid home they built themselves. So they root for the green team.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  10. #30
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    Re: U.N. Prepares to Debate Whether 'Mother Earth' Deserves Human Rights Status

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    I am aware of the toxicity involved in photovoltaic solar panels, as well as the limited amounts of I think its gallium arsenate(sic) available globally.

    There's a new PV chemistry that just came on the scene, I know little about it yet though.

    I'm a real fan of concentrating solar. The Sunflower system, which incorporates a Stirling engine at the focal point of a parabolic array is way cool, as well as some of the "farms" here in So Cal.

    But those systems are geographically constrained. They only work well in areas with very high full sun days. Deserts basically.

    I would like to know more about your global warming statement though, as I don't understand your reasoning. Not picking a fight.

    I have a friend who sprays on that white foam roofing, so I get that part.

    But I have always understood that A) PV panels shade roofs from direct sunlight, lowering net heat hitting the roof underneath and B) That the 15-30% you mentioned is converted to electricity and taken away, resulting in a net decrease in local heat.

    I am interested in your claim though and would like to hear more.

    I do like to know what I'm talking about.

    And I still think we should be leading the way in the arena of alt energy instead of fighting it every step of the way.

    I have friends who live downwind of the big windfarms near Palm Springs. They are convinced that weather patterns where they grew up have changed due to the drag the windmills put on the prevailing winds "stalling" weather systems that previously brought a lot more rain. No evidence just experiential data.

    And they live in a a sustainable, off-grid home they built themselves. So they root for the green team.
    It is called the albedo effect (incident radiation divided by reflected radiation). The urban heat island effect I mentioned earlier is caused by low albedo rates and installation of large swaths of solar panels in an otherwise grassy field or sandy desert would similarly reduce the albedo and give off more ambient heat than would otherwise be present (global climate forcing).

    Obviously we would need to study the effects of the tradeoff in how much Co2 would have been emitted if the same amount of energy had been produced by your local power plant but if your electricity comes from a local hydro power plant the numbers will be different than a local coal power plant or diesel power plant etc.

    I really don’t have time to do a study and write an essay on the subject because I have three term papers that will be due soon, but anyone with a basic understanding of physics who researches the reflective properties of different surface types can see that my point is valid.

    To reiterate my previous point, if people who claim to be worried about the environment spent less time telling us capitalism and evil fuel companies are destroying the planet and more time making suggestions like “how bout we change the color of roof shingles”, there might be a little more cooperation from people who can’t live without a car or electricity and have zero interest in the US adopting socialism or allowing other countries to tax us.

    Here is a link to a study a 13 year old boy did for his 8th grade science project. We need more kids like this.

    An Analysis of the Effect of Roofing Albedo on Ambient Temperature - 2007 Young Naturalist Awards

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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