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Thread: Associated Press: Arizona Senate Approves 'Birther' Bill

  1. #131
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    Re: Associated Press: Arizona Senate Approves 'Birther' Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    It's a major point to me. Neither you nor Simon can provide me any details on how this law would actually be carried out and what mechanisms would be in place to prevent abuse. It doesn't sound like anyone is very knowledgeable about this law.
    All I can see is that they will require every person to provide documentation. I don't see where it discusses how they will examine the documentation and determine its authenticity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    You have mistaken won't for can't.

    here
    Let me google that for you
    I don't think reading the bill answers his question.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    Re: Associated Press: Arizona Senate Approves 'Birther' Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Apuzo View Post
    Wong Kim Ark was never declared a natural born citizen as Article 2 Section 1 calls for. He was declared just a citizen.
    Do you understand what "natural-born citizen" means? It means that someone was a US citizen at the time of their birth, and has never had to go through the naturalization process to become a citizen. If you acknowledge that Barack Obama was a dual citizen of the US and the UK at the time of his birth, then that means he was a US citizen at the time of his birth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apuzo
    How can a person whose birth status was governed by the United Kingdom be considered a natural born citizen of the United States?
    Because he was born in the United States and therefore was a US citizen at the time of his birth, as per the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution. Any other dual citizenships do not change this fact.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-14-11 at 02:51 AM.
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    Re: Associated Press: Arizona Senate Approves 'Birther' Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Do you understand what "natural-born citizen" means? It means that someone was a US citizen at the time of their birth, and has never had to go through the naturalization process to become a citizen. If you acknowledge that Barack Obama was a dual citizen of the US and the UK at the time of his birth, then that means he was a US citizen at the time of his birth.



    Because he was born in the United States and therefore was a US citizen at the time of his birth, as per the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution. Any other dual citizenships do not change this fact.
    If a child is born in the US to a father who owes allegiance to a foreign power, that child also owes allegiance to that foreign power. Nothing has changed.

    Obama admits his birth status was governed by the United Kingdom. I think it’s very important to note that Obama himself gave preference to the United Kingdom in his statement at Fight The Smears. Notice that he didn’t say his birth status was governed by both United Kingdom and the US. Obama chose to give preference to his father’s nationality by stating that his birth status was directly tied to his father and not his mother. Your post contains a clear falsehood. Nowhere in the US Code is “natural born citizen” defined. The code does not include the words “natural born” in any section. It simply defines those who would be nationals and “citizens” of the US. There is no statute defining nbc. Furthermore, every other route to citizenship is defined in the US Code except nbc. For example, the US Code says nothing about persons born in the US to parents who are citizens because such persons do not need the code or the 14th Amendment to define their route to citizenship… it is natural born and therefore self evident. The Constitution makes a distinction between those eligible for Senator and Representative – citizens – and those eligible for President – natural born citizens. We see the true legal requirement that the President never owed allegiance to any foreign sovereign. This clean natural citizenship is one which can only be present at birth. Since the naturalized citizen can’t be President because he once owed allegiance to a foreign nation, the same goes for any other citizen who owed allegiance to a foreign nation. Obama admits to having owed fealty, aka allegiance, to the United Kingdom at the time of his birth. Therefore, Obama is not eligible to the office of President. Now I am headed to bed. Will post later tommorrow on this constitutional crisis we are having.
    Last edited by Apuzo; 04-14-11 at 03:15 AM.

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    Re: Associated Press: Arizona Senate Approves 'Birther' Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    You have mistaken won't for can't.

    here
    Let me google that for you
    Are you trying to prove to me that you have no knowledge of what it says in the bill? Because you are doing a great job. If you can't answer the questions then don't respond to my post, or even better, admit that you have no idea. Don't continually tell me to go read the bill myself when I'm simply inquiring of the people in this thread who appear to know what they are talking about, but apparantly don't.

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    Re: Associated Press: Arizona Senate Approves 'Birther' Bill

    So this is what the bill says, since nobody actually wants to answer my simple question.

    A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE
    37 SHALL SUBMIT AN AFFIDAVIT IN WHICH THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE STATES THE
    38 CANDIDATE'S CITIZENSHIP AND AGE AND SHALL APPEND TO THE AFFIDAVIT DOCUMENTS
    39 THAT PROVE THAT THE CANDIDATE IS A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN, PROVE THE
    40 CANDIDATE'S AGE AND PROVE THAT THE CANDIDATE MEETS THE RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS
    41 FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AS PRESCRIBED IN ARTICLE II, SECTION 1,
    42 CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.

    Now notice it doesn't say what documents are needed to prove citizenship and it doesn't set any mechanism in place to prevent abuse. If I'm the filing clerk in Arizona and I don't like Obama, what is keep me from saying that the state issued birth certificate for the Republican candidate is fine but Obama needs to provide a signed affidavit from the doctor who delivered him in order to prove his citizenship?

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    Re: Associated Press: Arizona Senate Approves 'Birther' Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    So this is what the bill says, since nobody actually wants to answer my simple question.

    A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE
    37 SHALL SUBMIT AN AFFIDAVIT IN WHICH THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE STATES THE
    38 CANDIDATE'S CITIZENSHIP AND AGE AND SHALL APPEND TO THE AFFIDAVIT DOCUMENTS
    39 THAT PROVE THAT THE CANDIDATE IS A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN, PROVE THE
    40 CANDIDATE'S AGE AND PROVE THAT THE CANDIDATE MEETS THE RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS
    41 FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AS PRESCRIBED IN ARTICLE II, SECTION 1,
    42 CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.

    Now notice it doesn't say what documents are needed to prove citizenship and it doesn't set any mechanism in place to prevent abuse. If I'm the filing clerk in Arizona and I don't like Obama, what is keep me from saying that the state issued birth certificate for the Republican candidate is fine but Obama needs to provide a signed affidavit from the doctor who delivered him in order to prove his citizenship?

    It won't be the filing clerk making that call.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Associated Press: Arizona Senate Approves 'Birther' Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Sad. Just sad.
    I think it's kind of funny. This is what Obama gets for being secretive.
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    Re: Associated Press: Arizona Senate Approves 'Birther' Bill

    Okay, I was wrong. I apologize. You guys really did need my help. Good thing I was here.

    HB2177 - 501R - S Ver

    A. THE NATIONAL POLITICAL PARTY COMMITTEE FOR A CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT FOR A PARTY THAT IS ENTITLED TO CONTINUED REPRESENTATION ON THE BALLOT SHALL PROVIDE TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE WRITTEN NOTICE OF THAT POLITICAL PARTY'S NOMINATION OF ITS CANDIDATES FOR PRESIDENT AND VICE‑PRESIDENT. WITHIN TEN DAYS AFTER SUBMITTAL OF THE NAMES OF THE CANDIDATES, THE NATIONAL POLITICAL PARTY COMMITTEE SHALL SUBMIT AN AFFIDAVIT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE IN WHICH THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE STATES THE CANDIDATE'S CITIZENSHIP AND AGE AND SHALL APPEND TO THE AFFIDAVIT DOCUMENTS THAT PROVE THAT THE CANDIDATE IS A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN, PROVE THE CANDIDATE'S AGE AND PROVE THAT THE CANDIDATE MEETS THE RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AS PRESCRIBED IN ARTICLE II, SECTION 1, CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
    B. THE AFFIDAVIT PRESCRIBED IN SUBSECTION A SHALL INCLUDE REFERENCES TO AND ATTACHMENT OF ALL OF THE FOLLOWING, WHICH SHALL BE SWORN TO UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY:
    1. A CERTIFIED COPY OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE'S LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE THAT INCLUDES AT LEAST THE DATE AND PLACE OF BIRTH, THE NAMES OF THE HOSPITAL AND THE ATTENDING PHYSICIAN, IF APPLICABLE, AND SIGNATURES OF ANY WITNESSES IN ATTENDANCE. IF THE CANDIDATE DOES NOT POSSESS A LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE AS REQUIRED BY THIS PARAGRAPH, THE CANDIDATE MAY ATTACH TWO OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTS THAT SHALL TAKE THE PLACE OF THE LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE IF THE CANDIDATE SWEARS TO THEIR AUTHENTICITY AND VALIDITY AND THE DOCUMENTS CONTAIN ENOUGH INFORMATION FOR THE SECRETARY OF STATE TO DETERMINE IF THE CANDIDATE MEETS THE REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN ARTICLE II, SECTION 1, CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES:
    (a) EARLY BAPTISMAL OR CIRCUMCISION CERTIFICATE.
    (b) HOSPITAL BIRTH RECORD.
    (c) POSTPARTUM MEDICAL RECORD FOR THE MOTHER OR CHILD SIGNED BY THE DOCTOR OR MIDWIFE OR THE PERSON WHO DELIVERED OR EXAMINED THE CHILD AFTER BIRTH.
    (d) EARLY CENSUS RECORD.
    2. A SWORN STATEMENT OR FORM THAT IDENTIFIES THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE'S PLACES OF RESIDENCE IN THE UNITED STATES FOR FOURTEEN YEARS.

    C. IN ADDITION TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF SUBSECTION B, THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE MAY ALSO SUBMIT A NOTARIZED AFFIDAVIT FROM TWO OR MORE PERSONS WHO WITNESSED THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE'S BIRTH.

    D. IF THE SECRETARY OF STATE RECEIVES ANY DOCUMENTS IN PLACE OF A LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE PURSUANT TO SUBSECTION B, PARAGRAPH 1 AND CANNOT DETERMINE IF THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE MEETS THE REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN ARTICLE II, SECTION 1, CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, THE SECRETARY OF STATE MAY ESTABLISH A COMMITTEE TO ASSIST IN THE DETERMINATION OR HOLD HEARINGS AND SUBMIT ANY DOCUMENTS FOR FORENSIC EXAMINATION.

    E. IF BOTH THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE AND THE NATIONAL POLITICAL PARTY COMMITTEE FOR THAT CANDIDATE FAIL TO SUBMIT AND SWEAR TO THE DOCUMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS SECTION, THE SECRETARY OF STATE SHALL NOT PLACE THAT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE'S NAME ON THE BALLOT IN THIS STATE. IF THE CANDIDATE AND NATIONAL POLITICAL PARTY COMMITTEE FOR THAT COMMITTEE SUBMIT AND SWEAR TO THE DOCUMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS SECTION, BUT THE SECRETARY OF STATE BELIEVES THAT THE PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT THE CANDIDATE DOES NOT MEET THE CITIZENSHIP, AGE AND RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS, THE SECRETARY OF STATE SHALL NOT PLACE THAT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE'S NAME ON THE BALLOT IN THIS STATE.

    F. A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, A MEMBER OF THE SENATE OR ANY OTHER CITIZEN OF THIS STATE HAS STANDING TO INITIATE AN ACTION TO ENFORCE THIS SECTION.
    I may be wrong.

  9. #139
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    Re: Associated Press: Arizona Senate Approves 'Birther' Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Apuzo View Post
    All post grandfather clause presidents were natural born citizens. Several (Buchanan, Hoover and Wilson) had a parent that was foreign born but they became naturalized U.S. citizens before they were born. With them now having two parents (plural) who were U.S. citizens at their births, they were born natural born citizens. Now one exception that has been rumoured who slipped through possibly was Chester Arthur in 1885 when Garfield was shot. He was said to have been born in Vermont or Canada but his dad was born in Ireland. Arthur wouldn't show his records and there issues of his eligibility back then. It was later that it was rumored that Arthurs dad was naturalized when Chester was 14 thus if that was the case then Chester was never eligible and was a British dual citizen but that is no excuse today for Obama because of Athur. The founders would have never let Arthur take office.
    The Founding Fathers were long dead before Chet Arthur came along. They neither allowed nor prevented him from taking office.

    At any rate, the birthplace of the parents is immaterial. The 14th Amendment grants citizenship to all people born in the United States. No law has ever been passed stating that this is not "natural born" citizenship. In fact, I'm not aware of a law that has been passed defining what a "natural born citizen" is. It's largely been assumed to mean "citizen since birth," which would apply to a person born in the US regardless of their parents' respective citizenships.

    The question then is, does Arizona have the right to decide this? Legally, the States regulate the elections and the rules around it. But could you imagine the chaos surrounding a Presidential election if every State had different candidates? And what happens if a person is considered a "natural born citizen" by say, Hawaii, but not by Arizona? Not just in terms of who can be President, but in any legal case where a person's citizenship applies? Would that person need a passport to change planes in Phoenix?

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    Re: Associated Press: Arizona Senate Approves 'Birther' Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    C. IN ADDITION TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF SUBSECTION B, THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE MAY ALSO SUBMIT A NOTARIZED AFFIDAVIT FROM TWO OR MORE PERSONS WHO WITNESSED THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE'S BIRTH.
    This is interesting. Because I'm sure all the birthers would shut up if two people said that Obama was born in the US.

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