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Thread: Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law

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    Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law

    Brazilian lawmakers say they will propose a national vote on whether to ban the sale of guns, after a deadly shooting at a school last week.

    The Senate leader said legislators would rush through a bill to allow a referendum to be held this autumn.
    A similar proposal in 2005 was rejected by voters and kept gun sales legal.

    So divided on "second amendment rights", really don't know what to think.

    BBC News - Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law
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    Re: Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    A similar proposal in 2005 was rejected by voters and kept gun sales legal.

    So divided on "second amendment rights", really don't know what to think.

    BBC News - Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law
    TBH Kaya, given that it's Brazil, where I've never set foot, I don't think I need to have an opinion. If it were Europe (or rather the UK, Spain, Turkey, France, Ireland) places that I know and sort of understand, I'd take a view. That view would probably be different depending on the country. With Brazil, well I've got cakes to bake, puddings to prepare and a s**t load of other work to take care of before I think about their right to bear arms. How about you, canım?
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    Re: Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    TBH Kaya, given that it's Brazil, where I've never set foot, I don't think I need to have an opinion. If it were Europe (or rather the UK, Spain, Turkey, France, Ireland) places that I know and sort of understand, I'd take a view. That view would probably be different depending on the country. With Brazil, well I've got cakes to bake, puddings to prepare and a s**t load of other work to take care of before I think about their right to bear arms. How about you, canım?
    Andaa özledim

    So its funny you mention Turkey because the AKP passed a bill recently relaxing gun laws significantly. Enough to make you think the AKP want to take it a step further after the elections.

    But back to Brazil; would all those children died if guns where outlawed? You can't really say. People tell me not to blame the gun but rather the person who uses it. Well, there are a lot of people who would use a gun to kill somebody mercilessly out there, and a lot of guns to help them do that. Surely disarming them would only make them less dangerous?

    - K
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    Re: Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Andaa özledim

    So its funny you mention Turkey because the AKP passed a bill recently relaxing gun laws significantly. Enough to make you think the AKP want to take it a step further after the elections.

    But back to Brazil; would all those children died if guns where outlawed? You can't really say. People tell me not to blame the gun but rather the person who uses it. Well, there are a lot of people who would use a gun to kill somebody mercilessly out there, and a lot of guns to help them do that. Surely disarming them would only make them less dangerous?

    - K
    It depends on how you want to talk about it and the dymanics of the illegal gun trade in Brazil. In all reality, you'll never make the number zero. Disarming a dangerous person would prevent a gun crime committed by that person. But that's the singular case and does not hold up to aggregation. Sure, if you knew a guy was dangerous, would kill people, and took away all his guns and completely eliminated all access to guns; you would prevent the gun crime (of course there are other weapons other than crime). But that's a lot of "if's". In reality you don't really know if random person X is going to run off and kill someone, so you don't get the benefit of hindsight. Additionally, while you can certainly enact regulations which restrict and control legal gun sales, it has little to no positive (as viewed from regular society) effect on the illegal guns out there if there is a significant means by which illegal products can be brought into the country (I say positive because you could certainly increase the demand on the black market which while positive for the black market, is a negative for the rest of the populace).

    In the end when someone says "well if he didn't have a gun, he couldn't have done it", that statement implies a sense of absolute and falls to the folly of aggregation. Meaning you state something simply for a singular case, but the actual dynamic involved is an aggregated system under which the simplistic statement does not apply. If in a country you could make the absolute number of guns zero, then you would have zero gun crime. There would be no way for a criminal to get ahold of a gun through illlegal markets or robbery. But as soon as that number starts coming up from zero, you can start to realize situations in which the bad guy somehow gets a gun. "Disarming the criminals" in essence becomes a very complex and expansive task since you pretty much have to reduce the absolute numbers of guns in a country to a level where criminals obtaining them becomes low probability. But again, that probability will not be zero less the number of guns out there is zero.

    If guns were simply outlawed, maybe those children wouldn't have died. But if there are still guns floating around, or illegal methods by which one can obtain firearms; there will remain the probability that the event would have happened. The amount of government force and regulation necessary to ensure a zero probability is not justified by the end state since it will require significant amount of infringements and force against the People. If Brazil is saturated with guns, simply outlawing them will do very little to the overall gun crime rates.
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    Re: Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law

    Brazil should not fall into this trap, this is classic knee-jerk reaction. When you disarm citizens you are at the mercy of the state.
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    Re: Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law

    In Brazil, it is illegal for anyone under the age of 25 to possess a firearm. Wellington Oliveira is 23.

    So, what good did gun control laws do, here?

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    Re: Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Andaa özledim
    Hala hala, bende, canım!
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law

    Id bet theres far more people in brazil stabbed to death and beaten to death than ever were shot dead, what stupidity.

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    Re: Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    A similar proposal in 2005 was rejected by voters and kept gun sales legal.

    So divided on "second amendment rights", really don't know what to think.

    BBC News - Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law
    Hopefully the Brazilians are not stupid enough to give up their ability to defend themselves.
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    Re: Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    A similar proposal in 2005 was rejected by voters and kept gun sales legal.

    So divided on "second amendment rights", really don't know what to think.

    BBC News - Brazil lawmakers to propose referendum on gun law
    How do second amendment rights figure into this?
    I may be wrong.

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