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Thread: Egypt's Hosni Mubarak in hospital after 'heart attack'

  1. #11
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    Re: Egypt's Hosni Mubarak in hospital after 'heart attack'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullshytz View Post
    He broke up with the Soviets cus he knew the USA is more beneficial.
    He kept the peace with Israel cus if he didn't the USA will dump him like a bad habit.



    Mubarak didn't do nothing to reduce the ME.
    If you open your eyes, the ME is full of wars and crisis.

    Mubarak only wants to be a big shot dictator.
    If he wasn't a bad guy, then most of his countrymen wouldn't of wanted him gone and dead.



    You should stop crying over a stupid dictator puppet.
    It is very, very difficult to follow a policy that will please everyone short term or anyone in the long term. It is choosing the course of least evil, not greatest good.

    Yes, Mubarek was a typical 3rd world dictator. Stealing, putting his buddies and family in positions of power and seeking to maintain power, not benefit the people. The reality is little different than most autocratic rulers for the whole of human history. The names change and the details of how they rule, but the result for most people...it's the same Bullshytz

    The difference is that Mubarek did more good, than harm. He was no worse than Qaddafi, Hussein (Syria and Iraq), etc, and in most respects, better.

  2. #12
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    Re: Egypt's Hosni Mubarak in hospital after 'heart attack'

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I, for one, do not find any good in this news. For all his flaws, some of which were exhibited during the popular uprising that led to his ouster, President Mubarak also deserves a lot of credit. Following the assassination of his predecessor Anwar Sadat, President Mubarak could have taken the easy path and terminated the still fragile bilateral Israel-Egypt peace treaty. He did not. In no small part due to his leadership, that agreement is on much more solid footing than it was when President Mubarak succeeded President Sadat. He played an active, energetic, and persistent role in trying to broker regional peace. While an overall peace agreement was not achieved, his efforts promoted regional stability. At a time when radicalism increased in numerous Mideast countries, President Mubarak helped safeguard Egypt from such influences, limiting their impact on Egypt. He was also a generally reliable ally for the United States.
    and how much did it cost us in "aid" to his country?
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  3. #13
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    Re: Egypt's Hosni Mubarak in hospital after 'heart attack'

    The belief that Mubarak was anything less than awful stems from the premise that American/Western interests in the Arab world are inherently "good," and working backwards from that premise. According to this mindset, as long as Arab leaders support American/Western interests, it is a mitigating factor for their other faults. But this premise is, at the very least, highly dubious.

    We see this still today. Muammar Gaddafi is evil and must be stopped because he's killing the opposition (and by pure coincidence is one of the few Arab leaders who the US dislikes). But if the government of Bahrain or Yemen does the same thing...well, it's a necessary evil that we look the other way because it's somehow for the "greater good" that those countries have pro-American governments. My question is this: What "greater good" is all of our influence in the Middle East building towards? And what about our previous forays into Middle Eastern politics makes us think that we know the greater good better than the people who actually have to live under those governments?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-13-11 at 01:06 AM.
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    Re: Egypt's Hosni Mubarak in hospital after 'heart attack'

    I don't really understand the need to treat leaders as either friends nor foes. Mubarak was certainly a bad guy, but he had useful qualities as well. It made sense to deal with him in order to bring sanity to the Israel situation. However, we were wrong in trying to be "allies" with someone as ideologically incompatible as a dictator. If he can't maintain control of his country, he clearly can't bring anything to the table, so we did the right thing in cutting him loose.

  5. #15
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    Re: Egypt's Hosni Mubarak in hospital after 'heart attack'

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    I don't really understand the need to treat leaders as either friends nor foes. Mubarak was certainly a bad guy, but he had useful qualities as well.
    Useful qualities for the United States, perhaps. Not so much for the Egyptian people.

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi
    It made sense to deal with him in order to bring sanity to the Israel situation.
    I agree that it's always good to work with foreign leaders, whether dictators or democrats, to promote peaceful outcomes to problems. With that said, the implication of what you are saying is that the wishes of the Egyptian people are insane, and that only the interests of the American/Israeli people in the situation are legitimate. That is exactly the mindset that I have a problem with: Start with the assumption that the goals of the United States fulfill some "greater good" in the Middle East, and then view any situation in the region through that prism.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-13-11 at 01:51 AM.
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    Re: Egypt's Hosni Mubarak in hospital after 'heart attack'

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    We supported Mubarak because he was willing to break with the Soviets and keep the peace with Israel. With Jordan and Egypt at peace with Israel, that only left Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians.

    Mubarak reduced tensions in the ME. So tell me how that makes him such a bad guy?

    You should be ashamed of yourselves.
    This is not a surprising response from somebody who cares little about the rights or well beings of other individual humans. The rights you enjoy and the rights your children enjoy could not be found under Mubarak. He tortured and murdered people for speaking out, arrested children under terrorism laws and violated almost every fundamental right that creates our modern society. People where scared to speak out. They where not allowed to think or feel differently to what the regime told them.

    Mubarak was an old cold war relic. It disgusts me that you put your own interests over the well beings of other people.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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  7. #17
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    Re: Egypt's Hosni Mubarak in hospital after 'heart attack'

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    This is not a surprising response from somebody who cares little about the rights or well beings of other individual humans. The rights you enjoy and the rights your children enjoy could not be found under Mubarak. He tortured and murdered people for speaking out, arrested children under terrorism laws and violated almost every fundamental right that creates our modern society. People where scared to speak out. They where not allowed to think or feel differently to what the regime told them.

    Mubarak was an old cold war relic. It disgusts me that you put your own interests over the well beings of other people.
    If you compare the freedoms, economies, human rights abuses, etc. between installed "strong arm" governments and US installed "strong arm" governments, universally the people have fared better under the US

    Thats the bottom line

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    Re: Egypt's Hosni Mubarak in hospital after 'heart attack'

    Useful qualities for the United States, perhaps. Not so much for the Egyptian people.
    Pretty much.

    I agree that it's always good to work with foreign leaders, whether dictators or democrats, to promote peaceful outcomes to problems. With that said, the implication of what you are saying is that the wishes of the Egyptian people are insane, and that only the interests of the American/Israeli people in the situation are legitimate. That is exactly the mindset that I have a problem with: Start with the assumption that the goals of the United States fulfill some "greater good" in the Middle East, and then view any situation in the region through that prism.
    I don't have that viewpoint at all. The wars with Israel were against the interests of the Egyptian people. They always ended in failure and cost Egypt territory. The Sinai was retaken only once the leadership got a clue and used negotiation not violence. On the flip side, I think that the U.S. should use aid money to strongarm Israel into getting rid of the settlements. I agree with Nasser nationalizing the canal and it was a high point in cold war diplomacy when we blackmailed France, Britain and Israel when they tried to take it back.

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    Re: Egypt's Hosni Mubarak in hospital after 'heart attack'

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    I think that the U.S. should use aid money to strongarm Israel into getting rid of the settlements.
    Why? Lets face it, the winner makes the rules

    Also, Israel has never declared war against its Muslim neighbors, including Iran, sworn to destroy them, and kill or drive everyone into the sea. Israel has not sent terrorists over their borders to kill civilians and deliberately target the most helpless.

  10. #20
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    Re: Egypt's Hosni Mubarak in hospital after 'heart attack'

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    If you compare the freedoms, economies, human rights abuses, etc. between installed "strong arm" governments and US installed "strong arm" governments, universally the people have fared better under the US

    Thats the bottom line
    Is that supposed to mean something to me?
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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