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Thread: Libya: African leaders head to Tripoli talks

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    Re: Libya: African leaders head to Tripoli talks

    yes, sir, it is staggering, i see what you see

    pray for all touched by it, if inclined

    i hope you have a wonderful weekend, i will

    cliff

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    Re: Libya: African leaders head to Tripoli talks

    The bottom line is that, the rebels are NOT any better then Kaddafi. They may be much worse.

    If I were President, I'd let them kill each other until we can get an good idea who the players are and what their attitude toward the West will be.

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    Re: Libya: African leaders head to Tripoli talks

    Today, the BBC provided the main outlines of the proposed ceasefire:

    - An immediate ceasefire
    - The unhindered delivery of humanitarian aid
    - Protection of foreign nationals
    - A dialogue between the government and rebels on a political settlement
    - The suspension of Nato airstrikes


    If these terms are implemented, it is a fairly reasonable proposal given where things presently stand, though I would have preferred something more robust on civilian protections than an immediate ceasefire. However, it remains to be seen whether the rebels will attempt to overreach, as they very likely want Gadhafi's departure rather than a dialogue that leads to a political settlement. Considering their bad battlefield position, lack of broad-based popular support among Libya's people, and gross political and military incompetence, the offer of a political dialogue is probably about as generous as one could have expected on that issue. FWIW, the Gadhafi dictatorship has already accepted those terms. If the proposal is accepted, each side's performance will determine whether it is effective. Performance, not promises, is what matters.

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    Re: Libya: African leaders head to Tripoli talks

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Today, the BBC provided the main outlines of the proposed ceasefire:

    - An immediate ceasefire
    - The unhindered delivery of humanitarian aid
    - Protection of foreign nationals
    - A dialogue between the government and rebels on a political settlement
    - The suspension of Nato airstrikes


    If these terms are implemented, it is a fairly reasonable proposal given where things presently stand, though I would have preferred something more robust on civilian protections than an immediate ceasefire. However, it remains to be seen whether the rebels will attempt to overreach, as they very likely want Gadhafi's departure rather than a dialogue that leads to a political settlement. Considering their bad battlefield position, lack of broad-based popular support among Libya's people, and gross political and military incompetence, the offer of a political dialogue is probably about as generous as one could have expected on that issue. FWIW, the Gadhafi dictatorship has already accepted those terms. If the proposal is accepted, each side's performance will determine whether it is effective. Performance, not promises, is what matters.
    I think foreign governments and corporations, including our own, have invested too much to allow a political settlement. This has never been about politics. Libya has big OIL and, like Iraq, it is the elephant in the room. The issue must be dealt with openly and truthfully, and that does not seem to be the modus operandi of the USA or the UN or NATO. All scumbags trying to present a plausible media front on an OIL grab.

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    Re: Libya: African leaders head to Tripoli talks

    IF this cease fire works out, and some sort of 'deal' is reached... how long before Obama or the White House claim credit for solving the problems in Libya?

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    Re: Libya: African leaders head to Tripoli talks

    Apparently, the rebels have rejected the ceasefire plan on grounds that it didn't require Col. Gadhafi's departure. Given their battlefield standing and gross political and military incompetence, they are in no position to dictate such an outcome. However, it is perhaps increasingly likely that NATO's purpose concerns regime change, political denials toward that end notwithstanding. The stated positions noted by the U.S., UK, and Italy following the rebels' rejection of the ceasefire terms, have underscored that the unstated purpose of the NATO mission may well concern regime change. BBC reported:

    The rebels said they were rejecting the truce because it did not include plans for Col Gaddafi to step down.

    The US, the UK and Italy have again said the Libyan leader must leave.


    IMO, NATO should not be pursuing regime change given the absence of critical interests in Libya. Moreover, given the rebels' inept political and military performance, the dangers associated with the power vacuum following the Gadhafi dictatorship's collapse or being driven from power would be substantial.

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    Re: Libya: African leaders head to Tripoli talks

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    The bottom line is that, the rebels are NOT any better then Kaddafi. They may be much worse.

    If I were President, I'd let them kill each other until we can get an good idea who the players are and what their attitude toward the West will be.
    I don't agree. The rebels don't commit atrocities like abducting and raping women and killing civilians, I haven't heard of any atrocities being committed by the rebels so far. As incompetent and disorganized as they are, they are not evil like Ghaddafi's soldiers and regime is. Also, we know that the rebels value freedom, a Western ideal, and would die for it. I don't know what everyone is waiting for, we should just overthrow the regime and let the Libyans figure it out from there.
    Last edited by Opteron; 04-12-11 at 01:27 AM.

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    Re: Libya: African leaders head to Tripoli talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    I don't agree. The rebels don't commit atrocities like abducting and raping women and killing civilians, I haven't heard of any atrocities being committed by the rebels so far. As incompetent and disorganized as they are, they are not evil like Ghaddafi's soldiers and regime is. Also, we know that the rebels value freedom, a Western ideal, and would die for it. I don't know what everyone is waiting for, we should just overthrow the regime and let the Libyans figure it out from there.
    My advice to the President is...choose your allies carefully so that they don't become your enemy later.

    Helping the rebels, and there are AQ/MB among them, we will be arming AQ/MB, as we armed the Taliban in A-stan against the Russians.

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    Re: Libya: African leaders head to Tripoli talks

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    My advice to the President is...choose your allies carefully so that they don't become your enemy later.

    Helping the rebels, and there are AQ/MB among them, we will be arming AQ/MB, as we armed the Taliban in A-stan against the Russians.
    I agree, we should be careful with who we side with, but with Afghanistan though, I think it was more the walking away part that was bad than was the arming of the Afghanis. After Russia left, the country was in pieces and then everyone walked away for decades leaving a failed state and a haven for terrorism. It looks like people are walking away from Libya too. Its better to put the country on a path toward democracy and legitimate government rather than dictatorship and oppression.

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    Re: Libya: African leaders head to Tripoli talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    I agree, we should be careful with who we side with, but with Afghanistan though, I think it was more the walking away part that was bad than was the arming of the Afghanis. After Russia left, the country was in pieces and then everyone walked away for decades leaving a failed state and a haven for terrorism. It looks like people are walking away from Libya too. Its better to put the country on a path toward democracy and legitimate government rather than dictatorship and oppression.
    The thing is...What's worse? A known thug with 40 years of patterns and precedent or an unknown incoming thug? Replacing Omar is a psychological victory with short-term returns and probably long-term loss. There's very limited reason for us to be there in the first place

    Let the Libyans fight this out among themselves. That would be the prudent thing to do

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