• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

Except I do believe that a fetus is alive in some not-so-meaningful sense of the word. When it develops consciousness, then it's a person whose life is the same as ordinary person. When it exists before consciousness, it's life is still at a stage of development that does not make it fully human.
right but there can be no "consciousness" without a brain to make it happen. and i don't see the word "consciousness" in the definition of the opposite of life which is death which is defined to be "brain death" at least in 48 states.
 
right but there can be no "consciousness" without a brain to make it happen. and i don't see the word "consciousness" in the definition of the opposite of life which is death which is defined to be "brain death" at least in 48 states.

right - and a fetus has brain life in the sense that its body can respond to external stimuli, etc. I agree that a fetus is alive, I just don't think it is alive in any meaningful sense of the word.
 
right - and a fetus has brain life in the sense that its body can respond to external stimuli, etc. I agree that a fetus is alive, I just don't think it is alive in any meaningful sense of the word.
it's just logical to me to make the point at which we determine when a human is alive at least corrispond to the point at which we determine when a human is dead which is "brain death" not "conscious death" according to the law.
 
Life is an incredible miracle. Having an abortion is like tossing away a winning lottery ticket every day for a thousand years. That's the odds that fetus survived to be born.
 
it's just logical to me to make the point at which we determine when a human is alive at least corrispond to the point at which we determine when a human is dead which is "brain death" not "conscious death" according to the law.

I agree - it is logical - which is why a fetus is alive when it has brain life. It just doesn't have a meaningful version of life - according to me. Life isn't particularly meaningful without consciousness.
 
I agree - it is logical - which is why a fetus is alive when it has brain life. It just doesn't have a meaningful version of life - according to me. Life isn't particularly meaningful without consciousness.
so you and i are really close on this i take it. i'm just a little fuzzy on "meaningful".
 
Just as I said. All you are doing is appealing to emotion "the poor little human, boo hoo." That's an appeal to emotion logical fallacy. Make your argument without the dramatics and I won't have to call you on it.

Your straw man argument is claiming I made an argument I never made. I never said that my answer to the complex question of what to do with unwanted chidren due to lack of abortions is to abort them. I asked a question, one which no one, including you, has answered. Again, I won't have to call you out on logical fallacies if you don't make them.

CC, would you describe for us what happens in a D&C, please?
 
so you and i are really close on this i take it. i'm just a little fuzzy on "meaningful".

Yeah, it seems that way. We both agree that a fetus/unborn child is alive and I believe that being alive before consciousness isn't a quality of life that compels me to become pro-life.
 
I don't know where you get the idea that Democrats refuse to drill for oil - Democrats are just not predisposed to coddle the oil companies as the Republicans do.

There is a lot of oil in Alaska the present government chooses to ignore and the Keystone pipeline has been waiting on a decision for far too long. If you call treating oil companies with some respect is "coddling" then i can see why some companies are saying it's become to difficult to do business there.

The recent problem we had with BP came about due to the previous administration not enforcing stiff regulations against the companies, which resulted in serious damage to the environment. And nobody is giving the oil companies the heave-ho. I'm glad your economy is booming, perhaps the main reason being you don't have Republicans mucking it up. But considering your economy is booming, your unemployment rate is not all that much lower than ours.

I'm glad out economy is doing well also, but I want the same for the American people too. And if you are going to strangle the chief suppliers of your energy resources then I can only see problems ahead. Nancy Pelosi visited here a while back to make sure Canada was following environmental guidelines but her visit was all for American political consumption. We follow very strict guidelines here but it's all become too political in the States.


Most Americans still do, but some are hoping that some of the money from the wealthy will trickle down, don't want to upset the super wealthy by making sure they pay their fair share.

This is a new attitude for Americans. I've never heard a time in their history when they waited for money to "trickle down". In fact this attitude seems exclusive to Americans right now.


As a Canadian I don't see reason for your concern with what rights we consider important here in the US, since it doesn't affect you, but apparently abortion was an important right in Canada at some time, being that Canada has no restrictions on it.

That's right, but we don't have the same rights here as the Americans do. Previous governments have removed those rights and the present generation grows up not realizing what is gone, or that they can never get it back. Now you're going through the same process and gradually eroding those rights that made your country great. We've seen it happen throughout the democracies and Europe is probably the best example of what the future holds.

Wiki:
Abortion in Canada is not limited by the law (on-demand, no time limit). While some non-legal obstacles exist, Canada is one of only a few nations with no legal restrictions on abortion.

That's right also. A majority government put it under our Medical system and despite protests there was nothing the Canadian people could do. Now you have the freedom to debate abortion, a luxury Canadians don't have. Soon that debate will disappear in the US also, probably sooner than many think.
And, you most certainly have a Welfare system, so I don't understand your uppity attitude about that.

Our welfare system has become more strict, but of course we also have many dependent on it to. I once worked in a city welfare department for a couple of years and it just went from one generation among many families to the next. They just became paperwork and nothing was really ever expected of them.

That may not be the reason they are moving up there, maybe they have just found some new suckers to squeeze money out of. But, you can't possibly be taxing corporations less than we do, why we had one of our biggest corporations, GE, not pay any taxes at all. Bet you can't top that!


yes, I'm familiar with that GE debacle and its ties with the US President and his political party but in fact the corporate tax rate in Canada is almost half of what is is in the States so with NAFTA in place it's very easy for companies to move up here.

Canada is doing well right now but if the government tries to do too much spending or the public makes greater and greater demands, I can see it collapsing, just as it has elsewhere. I tend to make conservative investments myself and it's served me well, and I appreciate my government doing the same thing. But once in power, with all that money at their disposal, they get a thrill of excitement they wouldn't otherwise enjoy, and want to right every wrong the world has ever known. That's when the problems begin and reminds us of Lord Acton's warning on power corrupting, which is just as true now as it was when he said it those many years ago. And the political party doesn't matter at all.
 
Last edited:
I agree - it is logical - which is why a fetus is alive when it has brain life. It just doesn't have a meaningful version of life - according to me. Life isn't particularly meaningful without consciousness.

We are rapidly reaching the point where people with no power can decide that someone else "doesn't have a meaningful version of life". Now all that's needed is some political power to back that ideology and the show is on once more.
 
We are rapidly reaching the point where people with no power can decide that someone else "doesn't have a meaningful version of life". Now all that's needed is some political power to back that ideology and the show is on once more.

We were already at the point the minute we decided to create a democracy.
 
Yeah, it seems that way. We both agree that a fetus/unborn child is alive and I believe that being alive before consciousness isn't a quality of life that compels me to become pro-life.
yeah i'm more interested in having the laws for both life and death agree with oneanother to simplify things a little. it seems to also meet both arguements halfway (kind of) also r.v.w. seems to agree with my arguement as well.
 
yeah i'm more interested in having the laws for both life and death agree with oneanother to simplify things a little. it seems to also meet both arguements halfway (kind of) also r.v.w. seems to agree with my arguement as well.

Problem is.....the circumstnaces of the beginning of life and the end of life are not the same.
 
We were already at the point the minute we decided to create a democracy.

That's what democracy is all about? Deciding who does and who doesn't have "a meaningful version of life", and using that as an argument to end said life?

That's not like any democracy I'm familiar with. I'm more from the 'live and let live', "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" school.
 
That's what democracy is all about? Deciding who does and who doesn't have "a meaningful version of life", and using that as an argument to end said life?

That's not like any democracy I'm familiar with. I'm more from the 'live and let live', "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" school.

Democracy is all about the people making their own decisions and then voting based on those ideas. So yes, in regards to abortion, people make their OWN decisions about "the meaningful version of life" and then vote accordingly. God bless America.
 
yeah i'm more interested in having the laws for both life and death agree with oneanother to simplify things a little. it seems to also meet both arguements halfway (kind of) also r.v.w. seems to agree with my arguement as well.

Well there are already arguments out there that suggests babies can be 'aborted' up to the time they are two years old and that women should be forced to have abortions so perhaps some Harvard professors should advise when people should be put to death as well. How about 55? That's when people begin becoming more of a burden to society and our taxes start to go up as a result. Think that might suit the Leftists?
 
Okay. I see I'm dealing with someone who has a problem with information and reality. This is not conducive to debate.

I'm sorry you felt so maligned as to lend yourself to personal attacks. But the cold hard reality is that there is right and there is wrong and there is no middle ground. With that, people created this "grey area" as a way of coping with decisions and/or actions that they know are wrong but they wanted to do any way. Most people can't stand the idea of being thought of as bad. They want to be good. So when they do something they know is wrong, they justify it (make it good) by complicating the issue and calling it a "grey area" there by implying that there was no right answer. That makes them feel better.
 
Democracy is all about the people making their own decisions and then voting based on those ideas. So yes, in regards to abortion, people make their OWN decisions about "the meaningful version of life" and then vote accordingly. God bless America.

You said "I agree - it is logical - which is why a fetus is alive when it has brain life. It just doesn't have a meaningful version of life - according to me. Life isn't particularly meaningful without consciousness".

That is "according to you", and that is where I'm directing my question.

According to you "a fetus is alive when it has brain life. It just doesn't have a meaningful version of life". This is not about "democracy" but your opinions, and the shared opinions of many others who have adopted this philosophy.

It is my observation that when those with power tend to feel they have the necessary insight and intelligence to determine who has and hasn't "a meaningful version of life", that all Hell breaks loose.

The Leftists were upset that Sarah Palin didn't abort her little boy with Down's Syndrome and were very critical of her for allowing his birth to take place. As time passes I suspect their rules about which life to allow will become even more stringent.
 
Just as I said. All you are doing is appealing to emotion "the poor little human, boo hoo." That's an appeal to emotion logical fallacy. Make your argument without the dramatics and I won't have to call you on it.

Your straw man argument is claiming I made an argument I never made. I never said that my answer to the complex question of what to do with unwanted chidren due to lack of abortions is to abort them. I asked a question, one which no one, including you, has answered. Again, I won't have to call you out on logical fallacies if you don't make them.
Here's the absurdity of pro-abortion argument:

They don't believe that a prenatal life conceived in a human womb is a prenatal human baby. They claimed it is a blob of tissue with no consciousness and no ability to feel pain. They will claim “It doesn't sway many people” even having “watched films on abortions with friends and acquaintances where they show all the gruesome stuff “.

Including the claim that: “If someone doesn't believe that a stage of development has the full value of a fully developed human, they are likely not going to react emotionally because they do not have the same attachment to it that a person who does believe those things will.

In their own word they claimed that it has only "the potential to develop consciousness and yet it is certainly not a human being".

As such, they convince themselves that abortion is not murder. If that's true, if that's what they truly believe, how on earth could they be emotionally disturbed by a factual description of a procedure called Dilation and Curettage performed during a surgical abortion procedure?

Do you get emotionally disturbed when people described the meat processing procedure? Would you accuse me of emotional appeal if I describe the butchering procedure as cutting into pieces of various sizes of meat or ground them hind legs into ground meats for sausage making? How about a description of cutting down a tree, a life no less, and shredding it into tiny pieces as mulch or pulverizing it into saw dust to be dumped into the compost pile?

How about liposuction procedure? Would you cry foul if I tell you how your fatty tissues are being sucked out of your sagging tummy?

Of course not. So, why would pro-abortion zealots who claim they don't believe a prenatal human life is a human being or, by their term, " a human person", get emotionally upset when a procedure of surgical abortion is factually described to them?

Obviously, deep down they know abortion is a cold blooded murder of innocent prenatal human beings. They may vehemently deny it and cry foul, but when confronted with reality, deep down within them their conscience convicts themselves. Thereby, involuntarily and unconsciously it betrays their lies. That’s why they cry foul and cry hard they do, vehemently and loudly.

Also, they will tell you abortion is a complex issue involving “unwanted children”. Yet, they refuse to realize that abortion is also too simple a solution to a complex problem. Not only that, it’s also a cop out option to destroy another human life to cover for the irresponsibility of the perpetrators.

With one foot, they will stand firm on the ground of abortion to make their point, which is a moot point. But, with the other foot hanging aloft, when confronted into a tight corner, they will stand on another ground to deny their case “to abort them".

It's an evasive behavior.
 
Good link, Grant. Thanks.

Here's something to ponder:

A short journey from 'pro-choice' to infanticide

"... the arraignment of Philadelphia abortionist Dr. Kermit Gosnell on eight murder charges: a third-degree charge for a woman who died under his knife, and seven first-degree charges of infanticide for "snipping" the spines of live babies "to ensure fetal demise": i.e. inducing births of viable thirdtrimester babies, and deliberately killing them post-delivery.

In its 261-page report, the grand jury described the conditions at Gosnell's filthy "clinic" as rivalling those in a Third World country: unwashed instruments spreading venereal disease, cats defecating where they pleased, a padlocked emergency exit, and floors sticky with placental and fetal remains.

Gosnell's gruesome practice was no secret, but the Pennysylvania Department of Health had decided to stop inspecting abortion clinics because "officials concluded that inspections would be 'putting a barrier up to women seeking abortions.'" ..."

I'm surprised no one has yet come forth to cry "Boo-Hoo" on the emotional appeal thang. That insensitive reporter needs to be canned for not white washing or covering up the gruesome details. Yeah right!

If pro-abortionists will have their way, everything would be sanitized!
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry you felt so maligned as to lend yourself to personal attacks. But the cold hard reality is that there is right and there is wrong and there is no middle ground. With that, people created this "grey area" as a way of coping with decisions and/or actions that they know are wrong but they wanted to do any way. Most people can't stand the idea of being thought of as bad. They want to be good. So when they do something they know is wrong, they justify it (make it good) by complicating the issue and calling it a "grey area" there by implying that there was no right answer. That makes them feel better.

Oh. So is this opposite day?
 
You said "I agree - it is logical - which is why a fetus is alive when it has brain life. It just doesn't have a meaningful version of life - according to me. Life isn't particularly meaningful without consciousness".

That is "according to you", and that is where I'm directing my question.

According to you "a fetus is alive when it has brain life. It just doesn't have a meaningful version of life". This is not about "democracy" but your opinions, and the shared opinions of many others who have adopted this philosophy.

It is my observation that when those with power tend to feel they have the necessary insight and intelligence to determine who has and hasn't "a meaningful version of life", that all Hell breaks loose.
1. It is about democracy because a democratic society rests upon the foundation that my opinion is valid.
2. Your observation would make sense if pro-choicers were ordering people to get abortions, but we're not. We're letting the woman make her own judgments and choices. "All hell isn't going to break loose because we're not advocating abortion - we're advocating choice.

In spite of what you think - you don't know any better than a woman who choses to have abortion. Any assumptions about the value/aliveness/etc. of an unborn child are subjective and your judgment of the situation should not be forced upon anyone anymore than mine should be - which is why people should be able to choose which judgment to follow.

The Leftists were upset that Sarah Palin didn't abort her little boy with Down's Syndrome and were very critical of her for allowing his birth to take place. As time passes I suspect their rules about which life to allow will become even more stringent.
Umm...no. A lot of "leftists" have mentally handicapped children and family members including people with Down's Syndrome so you have no idea what you're talking about. This is pretty offensive to any "leftist" with a mentally handicapped child.
 
1. It is about democracy because a democratic society rests upon the foundation that my opinion is valid.

I believe your opinion is seriously foolish with the consequences not having been well thought out, but I'd never suggest you don't have the right to speak out and voice your opinions. I also defended that Florida Pastor from speaking out, but only in regard to his rights. I assume you did the same. Right?

2. Your observation would make sense if pro-choicers were ordering people to get abortions, but we're not. We're letting the woman make her own judgments and choices. "All hell isn't going to break loose because we're not advocating abortion - we're advocating choice.

That day isn't far off.

Obama’s Top Science Advisor John Holdren Advocates Mass Sterilizations, Forced Abortions And A Global Police Force

In spite of what you think - you don't know any better than a woman who choses to have abortion. Any assumptions about the value/aliveness/etc. of an unborn child are subjective and your judgment of the situation should not be forced upon anyone anymore than mine should be - which is why people should be able to choose which judgment to follow.

I accept that. Now can you accept the idea that other people shouldn't have to pay for your individual choice?


Umm...no. A lot of "leftists" have mentally handicapped children and family members including people with Down's Syndrome so you have no idea what you're talking about. This is pretty offensive to any "leftist" with a mentally handicapped child.

A lot of Leftists ARE mentally handicapped children.

I'm directing my well deserved insults to the Leftists, not their children. Only Leftists attack children, in or out of the womb.

Did you miss those attacks on Sarah Palin's children? They felt so secure and safe with their insults directed at her children that it even went mainstream on Letterman.
 
Last edited:
I believe your opinion is seriously foolish with the consequences not having been well thought out, but I'd never suggest you don't have the right to speak out and voice your opinions.
Great. I don't think your opinion is foolish and I think you should have the right to say it.

I also defended that Florida Pastor from speaking out, but only in regard to his rights. I assume you did the same. Right?
No. I don't "defend" morons. I did, however, say that he should have the right to burn the Koran and be a moron.


In academic communities where people don't get alarmed at ideas, these topics and arguments are not at all "crazy". He's talking about the potential measures a country would take if its overpopulation threatened survival. Oftentimes, when the topic is about something as dramatic as "the survival of the population", the arguments are also as dramatic. I'm unmoved.

I accept that. Now can you accept the idea that other people shouldn't have to pay for your individual choice?
Sure. They don't - abortion isn't federally funded.

Edit (in response to your edit):
A lot of Leftists ARE mentally handicapped children.
Children can't vote and many mentally handicapped people can't either. This comment is irrelevant.

I'm directing my well deserved insults to the Leftists, not their children. Only Leftists attack children, in or out of the womb.

Did you miss those attacks on Sarah Palin's children? They felt so secure and safe with their insults directed at her children that it even went mainstream on Letterman.
People insulted Chelsea Clinton and still do. Your point is invalid. Politicians' children are always insulted - it usually increases with age which is why Bristol got the brunt of it.
 
Last edited:
And this is your problem. You refuse to look at the complexity of the situation, which is my whole point. Behaviors and actions have consequences, consequences that affect many more than what you are considering. You are failing to either grasp or address the entire issue. Either way, your position flounders because of that.

I certainly look at the complexity of the situation, however I also look at the bigger picture and see in that no serious loss to justify the kind of attitude people have here. That some portion of the poor might have a problem finding such a facility in the immediate term, presuming again that Planned Parenthood actually had to shut down over the loss of funding, is not serious enough to override the benefit of shutting down the largest abortion provider in the country.

Just because you consider it correct, doesn't make it so... a fact that you seem to forget... and one I always enjoy pointing out. You are incorrect.

Really? Why do you think most women have abortions if not convenience?

Not an appeal to emotion at all. All accurate statements. It's a real simple fact of numbers, DoL. Increase the population, increase the need for services, materials, food, etc... VERY SIMPLE economics. Further, children who are not wanted tend to be treated as such. All of this is the reality of how things operate. Now, I know that the way that pro-lifers tend to debate is outside the parameters of reality and planning, but that does not alter my intention to present those real issues.

It is an appeal to emotion because you are using the fear of these problems as an argument in itself. You are saying we should allow abortion because very bad things would happen if we didn't. That is classic appeal to emotion because it does not involve an actual argument for allowing abortion, only an argument for how scary things would be without it.

Do you believe it? Yup. Is it an appeal to emotion? Yup.

Calling it what I believe it to be is just that. It is not an appeal to emotion in any way. Do not mistake saying something that incites strong emotions with an appeal to emotion. My emotions on this issue are strong and I am not going to sugarcoat abortion just to satisfy misguided nit-pickers like yourself who pompously toss around the names of logical fallacies to try and "win" a discussion.

I've told you before. You do not decide how I debate. I do... as I just demonstrated. You can keep trying, but I will ignore and mock you each time you try this.

I was not telling you how to debate, just telling you the only two possible choices for your accusation to have any consistency. The people who defined "appeal to emotion" are responsible for that.

I accept that they are human. And I am still making the argument that I am making. You have failed AGAIN. You do not understand the argument.

I did not just say "human" but "as human as the rest of us" and there is a significant difference.

Irrelevant to what I am discussing with you. You can try to change because you cannot or will not answer the question, but that does not mean that I will allow you to slink away from it. You want abortion to stop. One thing you need for that to happen is to convince some of us who could be swayed. I am telling one way to do that. This argument is an argument that lots of pro-choicers put out there... and one that pro-lifers refuse to answer. Your emotional concerns for the unborn are irrelevant to me... and if you want to sway me, you need to focus on what IS relevant. What would be your plan to manage all of the additional chidren that would be alive if abortion no longer happened?

My issue with you is the insistence that one can only propose putting an end to abortion if they already have a plan to deal with the entire child-care system. Were you only inquiring as to what would be done to deal with the consequences it would be one thing, but here you are conditioning an end to abortion with answering the query to your satisfaction. I am not playing your game.

Demonstrating that you do not know what you are talking about. I work with providers, daily. Very few take Medicaid.

Your vague anecdotes are of no interest to me. How about you provide some hard facts?

That's you parsing the numbers. It also means that 2/3 of their facilities have nothing to do with abortions.

For now, though that is slated to change. However, one-third of their facilities being focused more on abortions than any other services sounds a lot different from "3% of their services are abortions" which is what you and Chappy first trotted out. The latter gives the deceitful impression that abortion is not a significant part of what Planned Parenthood does while the former indicates it is a central service to the organization.
 
Back
Top Bottom